July 7, 2025

Culling With Clarity Part 2

Show Notes
Transcript

In Part 2 of “Culling With Clarity,” join Mandelyn, John, and Rip as they continue their honest and thought-provoking conversation about the art and responsibility of culling within a poultry breeding program. This episode digs deeper into the emotional challenges, humane techniques, and practical considerations that all poultry keepers face when selecting and removing birds from their flocks.

You’ll hear personal experiences about predator recovery, humane euthanasia options, what makes dual-purpose breeds more sustainable, and the real-world challenges of over-culling and narrow gene pools. We also discuss deferred culling, stress-based selection, record-keeping, and how better birds improve your skills as a breeder.

Whether you're new to poultry or deep into a selective breeding program, this episode offers clarity, compassion, and practical advice to help you cull with confidence and integrity.

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WEBVTT

00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:08.160
In this episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast, Mandelyn, John,and Rip wrap up last week's discussion with part 2 of Culling with Clarity.

00:00:08.820 --> 00:00:09.949
So let's join them now.

00:00:20.530 --> 00:00:22.091
John, what's your thoughts?

00:00:22.091 --> 00:00:24.221
When it's for humane reasons.

00:00:24.550 --> 00:00:24.971
Yeah.

00:00:25.060 --> 00:00:26.821
You just you do what you need to.

00:00:27.721 --> 00:00:36.151
There, there are some times where I will go through extraordinary efforts to save a bird and one of those times is after a predator attack.

00:00:37.051 --> 00:00:38.341
Yeah, that wasn't their fault.

00:00:38.706 --> 00:00:39.776
It wasn't their fault.

00:00:39.835 --> 00:00:54.415
And if one, if I have a pretty bad attack and lose several birds and one or two happen to survive, especially if they were an object of the attack and have been injured I've actually sutured up birds before

00:00:55.045 --> 00:00:58.345
and they're surprisingly resilient to recovery in those Oh, they're,

00:00:58.345 --> 00:00:59.625
they're they bounce back.

00:00:59.625 --> 00:01:00.045
Great.

00:01:00.165 --> 00:01:01.680
But I, that ducks are even.

00:01:02.581 --> 00:01:03.750
Ducks feel faster.

00:01:04.441 --> 00:01:05.971
Yeah, for sure.

00:01:06.790 --> 00:01:13.611
But I believe that adds to that predator awareness trait that I'm always looking for.

00:01:13.950 --> 00:01:15.450
They've survived an attack.

00:01:15.570 --> 00:01:17.105
They've basically lived through it.

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Maybe they're gonna impart that knowledge down, either directly through a parental training.

00:01:24.105 --> 00:01:25.275
They absolutely do.

00:01:25.725 --> 00:01:28.786
Or genetically on an epigenetic development basis.

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But.

00:01:29.876 --> 00:01:35.786
If a bird survives a predator attack, I want to keep their genetics around, even if it was just dumb luck.

00:01:36.325 --> 00:01:46.555
'cause there may be something in there that gave them that little edge to get away a second before the bird that was right next to'em that didn't get away.

00:01:47.456 --> 00:01:50.036
How do you guys actually dispatch a burden?

00:01:50.936 --> 00:01:53.575
I have three different methods depending on age.

00:01:53.950 --> 00:01:55.210
Cervical dislocation.

00:01:56.111 --> 00:01:59.051
Yeah, cervical dislocation.

00:01:59.051 --> 00:02:00.881
But I have three different tools.

00:02:01.781 --> 00:02:14.591
So if they're like little bitty chicks that hatched and they're just not gonna do well, which is like one and 101 and one 50, something like that, I might have to take care of early.

00:02:15.070 --> 00:02:18.191
And I have a set of pruning shears.

00:02:19.091 --> 00:02:21.010
And then that fixes it right there.

00:02:21.070 --> 00:02:28.691
And then for older ones, I have a poultry dispatcher tool that's wall mounted and that'll do it fast.

00:02:28.691 --> 00:02:32.531
'cause my knife work is not my job.

00:02:32.531 --> 00:02:36.070
That's what my husband does, and I wasn't confident in it.

00:02:36.070 --> 00:02:43.300
And if you're not confident, you wanna go with something proven and surefire because tabba, it makes you feel so awful.

00:02:44.200 --> 00:02:44.920
Yes, it's bad.

00:02:44.920 --> 00:02:46.061
So quick.

00:02:46.570 --> 00:02:52.061
Ensure is the approach so that you don't have to carry around guilt, that it took too long.

00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:54.401
Those tools are handy.

00:02:54.401 --> 00:02:58.920
I've got one too, and that's what I use on older birds, but it's quick.

00:02:59.820 --> 00:03:02.640
It's doesn't overly stress out the birds.

00:03:03.401 --> 00:03:05.170
Yeah, low stress is key to me.

00:03:05.200 --> 00:03:07.510
I don't want'em to even know it's about to happen.

00:03:07.841 --> 00:03:11.140
No, I don't want them to have any knowledge or feeling or anything over it.

00:03:11.191 --> 00:03:12.510
Because that's what's fair to them.

00:03:13.411 --> 00:03:14.371
Oh, absolutely.

00:03:15.270 --> 00:03:18.031
But there are other places that some of these can go.

00:03:18.061 --> 00:03:28.346
We have a Raptor Rehabilitation Center here, which will take live birds of certain sizes depending on what they're actually working on, rehabilitating.

00:03:28.991 --> 00:03:31.390
And then they also have a facility.

00:03:31.915 --> 00:03:35.816
Where they take care of the euthanasia, oh, I can't even say that word.

00:03:36.186 --> 00:03:38.015
In a carbon dioxide chamber.

00:03:38.496 --> 00:03:42.605
So if you are a soft heart about it, you can bring it to, you can usually bring it.

00:03:42.605 --> 00:03:44.735
Find some place that will take that for you.

00:03:45.316 --> 00:03:47.985
As long as you're not too particular about what happens afterwards.

00:03:48.885 --> 00:03:52.510
What about comparing culling between.

00:03:53.411 --> 00:03:56.290
Single purpose versus dual purpose.

00:03:57.191 --> 00:03:59.890
I am a big fan of dual purpose.

00:04:00.550 --> 00:04:04.121
Because you're gonna end up with a lot of males that don't have anywhere to go.

00:04:04.901 --> 00:04:13.360
And they may be structurally sound with a solid temperament, but there's still nowhere available for them to go outside of your farm.

00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:20.230
And so that's where that dual purpose piece really fits in because you get to be picky.

00:04:21.130 --> 00:04:22.391
But nothing's wasted.

00:04:23.290 --> 00:04:24.100
Exactly.

00:04:24.110 --> 00:04:36.591
And I see too many times people go down to the feed store and buy a bunch of straight run checks and suddenly realized they got a bunch of males they got to dispose of.

00:04:37.490 --> 00:04:37.730
Yeah.

00:04:38.180 --> 00:04:40.281
That's not an easy trick to do.

00:04:41.180 --> 00:04:45.170
Especially when they're of a variety that's not ever gonna get meaty.

00:04:45.891 --> 00:04:50.031
Because now you're looking at soup stock and bone broth and not much else.

00:04:50.930 --> 00:04:52.310
That's pretty, pretty much it.

00:04:53.211 --> 00:04:53.930
Pretty much it.

00:04:54.831 --> 00:04:55.040
Yep.

00:04:55.165 --> 00:05:00.680
And off of one Bird, I can get two pints of broth and two pints.

00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:02.810
Times however many birds.

00:05:03.110 --> 00:05:05.870
I don't even have room to store that much chicken broth.

00:05:06.771 --> 00:05:07.730
I'd rather have the meat.

00:05:08.630 --> 00:05:09.675
Yeah I agree.

00:05:09.675 --> 00:05:22.586
See that's an important thing though, is the dual purpose birds, they have a value through their entire lifespan, whether it's for a potential breeder or not.

00:05:22.586 --> 00:05:26.185
They're always going to be a good egg producer.

00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.680
Or a good meat producer inherently.

00:05:29.980 --> 00:05:32.951
Otherwise you're not, you don't have dual purpose birds.

00:05:33.850 --> 00:05:37.831
Right now, and oh, by the way, pick your top 10% to breed from and you're good to go.

00:05:38.130 --> 00:05:39.750
It's, see, as easy as that, folks, I,

00:05:40.651 --> 00:05:44.521
right now, this time of year is extra al season.

00:05:44.581 --> 00:05:44.670
Yes.

00:05:45.060 --> 00:05:49.370
So if you just scan your local ads just look at how many are there.

00:05:49.420 --> 00:05:49.571
For free.

00:05:49.571 --> 00:05:49.630
So

00:05:50.531 --> 00:05:52.091
that bird has been raised.

00:05:52.735 --> 00:05:55.196
Fed tended and that,

00:05:55.346 --> 00:05:55.855
for at least people

00:05:55.855 --> 00:06:02.725
start listing'em at 12 weeks, eight weeks old and 20 weeks old, and on through this whole summer, they're listing them free of charge.

00:06:02.786 --> 00:06:08.995
So all that feed, all that time, all that space just to turn around and give it away for free.

00:06:09.086 --> 00:06:11.185
There should also be market value there.

00:06:12.086 --> 00:06:12.326
Yeah.

00:06:12.636 --> 00:06:16.685
Why are you giving away something that has value?

00:06:16.685 --> 00:06:16.745
I.

00:06:16.795 --> 00:06:17.636
I always look at that.

00:06:17.636 --> 00:06:20.065
If it's not worth going in your freezer, why do I want it?

00:06:20.966 --> 00:06:24.656
And unfortunately, that's where a lot of chicken ends up is a free rooster.

00:06:24.656 --> 00:06:26.786
Because there's not enough homes.

00:06:26.995 --> 00:06:28.706
There's not, it's impossible.

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And there's luckily people, like in our neighborhood, there's two or three different people that I'm aware of that I could call up and they just drive around once a week and take all these roosters and put'em in a trailer.

00:06:40.136 --> 00:06:46.315
And they take'em back to their farm and they finish'em, and then the meat goes to local charitable organizations.

00:06:47.216 --> 00:06:47.576
But

00:06:47.576 --> 00:06:47.786
that's good.

00:06:48.355 --> 00:06:57.370
You know that's literally taking a waste product, that we're taking advantage of the fact that somebody has paid all this money to put into these birds just to give them away,

00:06:58.211 --> 00:06:58.511
right.

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And

00:06:58.901 --> 00:07:03.310
try to recapitalize some of that and feed people in need.

00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:05.480
So that's actually a decent model.

00:07:06.365 --> 00:07:07.826
But it's a nonprofit model.

00:07:08.586 --> 00:07:10.745
Nobody's making any money off of this.

00:07:10.795 --> 00:07:12.475
We're feeding people the best we can.

00:07:13.375 --> 00:07:14.906
And that's a good utilization.

00:07:14.906 --> 00:07:20.665
But when you look at any other type of livestock, the bottom of the market is always the meat value.

00:07:20.995 --> 00:07:21.175
Yep.

00:07:22.076 --> 00:07:24.206
For pig, for cattle, for goat, for sheep.

00:07:24.386 --> 00:07:27.355
The bottom price point is meat value and.

00:07:28.255 --> 00:07:28.615
Chickens.

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Don't have that.

00:07:29.815 --> 00:07:37.346
Go to any dairy and waive a$50 bill under somebody's nose for a two day old male calf.

00:07:38.065 --> 00:07:38.730
That's not true.

00:07:39.031 --> 00:07:42.786
In our area our beef market's gotten crazy.

00:07:43.086 --> 00:07:43.266
Wow.

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It has here too.

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We're all dairy up here.

00:07:45.511 --> 00:07:49.081
We don't really do beef unless you're into the specialty beef market.

00:07:49.980 --> 00:07:56.310
So all the male calves go to the, beef auction and they, feed into the food system.

00:07:56.880 --> 00:08:03.250
But that's part of, for any mammal to give milk, they have to give birth.

00:08:03.880 --> 00:08:16.761
So we're going to have, 50 50, just like with chickens, you're gonna have 50 50 male to female egg layers and roasters, you're gonna have 50 50 milkers and beers.

00:08:17.661 --> 00:08:25.250
Now when it comes to poultry, how picky is too picky when you're going through and making your decisions,

00:08:26.151 --> 00:08:35.035
when you don't have anything left to select from that when you start considering an outcross, or maybe you were that bad to begin with, you don't know.

00:08:35.936 --> 00:08:35.966
I.

00:08:36.865 --> 00:08:42.566
I think people can fall into the perfection trap, so to speak.

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I've been there.

00:08:44.365 --> 00:08:45.775
That bird is not perfect.

00:08:46.196 --> 00:08:57.145
It gets cold and that can come back to bite you in a hurry because you're going to, you're gonna have a very narrow gene pool if you do that for very long.

00:08:58.046 --> 00:08:58.166
I

00:08:58.166 --> 00:08:58.168
like it.

00:08:58.173 --> 00:09:06.431
I had very frustrating two seasons where I almost called myself outta my original flock, and those were the best ones that I had.

00:09:06.910 --> 00:09:11.100
But I tried to get too picky too fast, and that was a mistake.

00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.821
It set me back a year just to salvage what I had.

00:09:15.721 --> 00:09:18.091
I think ideally I'd like to see about.

00:09:18.990 --> 00:09:26.880
Af after I've worked with my birds for a while, I like to see about 80% of'em that meet my goals.

00:09:27.780 --> 00:09:37.730
Now, that doesn't mean that I'm going to keep 80% of them, trust me, but with the top 20 to 10% I like to err on 10%.

00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:41.630
Are going to be the breeders that I keep.

00:09:42.530 --> 00:09:56.551
Now over the grow out period, do you have a method of when you're calling, how many, like what age were you doing your first call versus what age you did your last call?

00:09:57.451 --> 00:10:00.150
I would do my first call at about 10 weeks.

00:10:01.051 --> 00:10:11.701
And then for females, because Rhode Island reds are so darn slow to mature as males females, I could do comfortably at 16 to 20 weeks.

00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:16.110
I, as, as long as they were, the feathers were fully developed.

00:10:16.291 --> 00:10:17.941
It was my key for going by those.

00:10:18.841 --> 00:10:18.931
Yeah.

00:10:18.931 --> 00:10:22.456
But males it could take me 10 and a half, 11 months.

00:10:23.145 --> 00:10:24.946
Before I was comfortable calling those.

00:10:25.846 --> 00:10:30.676
Now, at that 10 month point, what percentage of males did you have left?

00:10:31.576 --> 00:10:37.395
I would shoot for 15% to pick through for breeders.

00:10:38.025 --> 00:10:38.235
15.

00:10:38.235 --> 00:10:38.716
That's about

00:10:38.716 --> 00:10:39.285
what I do.

00:10:39.346 --> 00:10:39.706
Yeah.

00:10:39.711 --> 00:10:39.890
Yeah.

00:10:40.791 --> 00:10:43.910
Like the bulk before 20 weeks for sure.

00:10:44.150 --> 00:10:49.221
For the bulk, but that might be 60, 70, 80%.

00:10:49.640 --> 00:10:57.620
Now the rest of them keep right on growing and I keep dumping feed down their throat'cause I'm waiting on those final details.

00:10:58.520 --> 00:11:13.461
I, I got to the point with my reds, and it took me a number of years to do this, but I could look at a bird when they were 10 weeks old and I could predict fairly well what they were gonna turn into.

00:11:13.461 --> 00:11:14.900
Now I couldn't do it a hundred percent.

00:11:15.801 --> 00:11:23.331
But by the time they were at that four to five months old, I, the keepers became pretty obvious to me.

00:11:23.931 --> 00:11:29.541
And how many years did it take you to develop your eye to be able to do that?

00:11:30.441 --> 00:11:33.650
Eight, nine years before I was comfortable with doing it.

00:11:34.461 --> 00:11:34.730
Yeah.

00:11:35.630 --> 00:11:38.181
That, that tracks'cause I'm a, you're.

00:11:39.081 --> 00:11:44.000
Eight of doing this seriously, and I feel like I'm only just now pretty comfortable.

00:11:44.331 --> 00:11:44.600
Yeah,

00:11:44.900 --> 00:11:45.921
only just now

00:11:46.821 --> 00:11:55.971
I think Madeleine, I think some of that is because we are naturally unsure of ourselves and I have been known to go back and forth on the bird.

00:11:56.160 --> 00:11:56.551
Do I keep it?

00:11:56.551 --> 00:11:57.150
Do I call it?

00:11:57.150 --> 00:11:57.390
Do I?

00:11:57.701 --> 00:11:58.061
That's what

00:11:58.275 --> 00:11:59.316
that extra time is for.

00:11:59.586 --> 00:11:59.875
Yeah.

00:12:00.775 --> 00:12:01.066
Geez.

00:12:01.571 --> 00:12:02.410
I have done that.

00:12:02.410 --> 00:12:05.171
I don't know how many times now my mentor.

00:12:06.071 --> 00:12:08.255
10 weeks old, you'd look at'em.

00:12:09.155 --> 00:12:10.326
That one goes in this pen over here.

00:12:10.326 --> 00:12:14.676
'cause I'm going to keep it, this one goes in this pen over here'cause it's, I'm sell it.

00:12:15.576 --> 00:12:16.446
He was incredible.

00:12:16.716 --> 00:12:19.535
But he'd been breeding them 50 years too.

00:12:20.436 --> 00:12:21.125
So he knows.

00:12:21.125 --> 00:12:21.605
Knows.

00:12:21.696 --> 00:12:21.905
Yes.

00:12:22.806 --> 00:12:29.466
And folks, the more you work with your birds, the longer you have them, the better you're gonna get at culling.

00:12:29.466 --> 00:12:31.355
And the faster you can go through a bunch of birds

00:12:32.225 --> 00:12:36.035
and you can't force that to happen any faster than it naturally will.

00:12:36.336 --> 00:12:37.211
You may think you can't.

00:12:37.211 --> 00:12:37.505
You almost have,

00:12:37.566 --> 00:12:40.355
you almost have to slow down to learn it

00:12:40.355 --> 00:12:41.105
faster.

00:12:41.615 --> 00:12:42.306
Absolutely.

00:12:43.206 --> 00:12:52.216
And this goes right back to the more time we spend studying and looking at our birds, the better job we can do and the faster we can learn to do it.

00:12:53.115 --> 00:12:54.466
But there, for a long

00:12:54.466 --> 00:13:09.615
time I was sorting my birds without calling just to see if I was right and developing my methods based off of the theories, but doing nothing terminally.

00:13:10.275 --> 00:13:15.645
So I would sort among my pens and say, I think these are gonna work out.

00:13:16.005 --> 00:13:18.285
I think these are gonna end up as degrade.

00:13:18.586 --> 00:13:21.885
I think these are passable, but not quite what I'm looking for.

00:13:21.885 --> 00:13:33.706
And I'd do that three groups split up, and then I'd keep feeding all of'em to see when I was wrong, how I was wrong, or when I was right, and how I was right.

00:13:34.155 --> 00:13:38.206
And it was expensive, but it was very highly educational.

00:13:38.306 --> 00:13:43.796
I learned a lot fast by not being too brash in my methods.

00:13:44.390 --> 00:13:44.681
Have,

00:13:45.581 --> 00:13:49.150
but you also get good conformation that, you know what, yeah, I was right.

00:13:49.811 --> 00:13:50.081
Yeah.

00:13:50.380 --> 00:13:50.936
About you have,

00:13:50.936 --> 00:13:57.581
have you guys ever practiced what I call, for lack of a better description here in my notes, deferred calling.

00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:04.660
Where you're not quite sure about a bird and you let it go and grow a little bit longer until you

00:14:04.870 --> 00:14:06.941
waiting for conformation is wise.

00:14:07.390 --> 00:14:07.841
Yes.

00:14:08.740 --> 00:14:09.130
Makes sense.

00:14:09.130 --> 00:14:09.221
So

00:14:09.221 --> 00:14:15.370
long as you can afford to keep'em and house'em and give'em all their fair treatment of their lifestyle like you do.

00:14:15.461 --> 00:14:19.600
If you do it under crowded circumstances it's not gonna pan out as hoped.

00:14:20.500 --> 00:14:28.211
So you can really only do that if you can appropriately manage what you have and spend accordingly.

00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:30.461
'cause it's not a free adventure.

00:14:31.030 --> 00:14:39.221
You bring up another interesting point, Mandy, is that the birds are gonna perform differently on their development based upon their crowding or lack thereof.

00:14:40.030 --> 00:14:45.581
So by changing the crowding a little bit, you could greatly affect the development.

00:14:45.880 --> 00:14:46.421
Of a bird,

00:14:47.321 --> 00:14:57.280
which is why you should take notes of everything you do and how that turned out so that you can confirm with accuracy if it's something that really works for you

00:14:57.971 --> 00:14:58.900
and that's the key.

00:14:58.900 --> 00:15:07.061
Having a bird that develops amazing if they're entirely restricted and have a 10 by 10 run all by themselves doesn't do you any good.

00:15:07.571 --> 00:15:10.571
If your infrastructure is not gonna allow you to,

00:15:10.620 --> 00:15:11.490
If you put one bird

00:15:12.091 --> 00:15:12.541
in 10 space,

00:15:12.931 --> 00:15:15.181
they don't have the competition to prove themselves.

00:15:15.230 --> 00:15:16.850
So that's not a proven bird.

00:15:16.850 --> 00:15:17.451
And

00:15:17.500 --> 00:15:19.331
that's a bold bird, is what that is.

00:15:19.990 --> 00:15:20.380
Yeah.

00:15:20.921 --> 00:15:21.160
Yeah.

00:15:21.221 --> 00:15:26.510
So evaluating as a cohort or as a group is still of huge importance I believe.

00:15:27.410 --> 00:15:33.441
I feel like my sorting and selecting throughout the ages gives them a level of stress.

00:15:33.740 --> 00:15:42.801
Just by me doing that, that then helps me a week or two after that with further refinement because of those who couldn't handle the stress of what I did Yes.

00:15:42.801 --> 00:15:43.346
A couple weeks ago.

00:15:44.245 --> 00:15:45.311
I can see that's for sure.

00:15:45.316 --> 00:15:45.566
Yeah.

00:15:45.941 --> 00:15:46.181
Yeah.

00:15:46.181 --> 00:15:48.201
There was an interesting question that.

00:15:48.546 --> 00:15:54.096
Was floating around in the groups about if you're moving, what would be the best method.

00:15:54.635 --> 00:16:04.235
And I really thought about that for a couple of hours and I said the least stressful for everybody and everything involved is just move with your eggs.

00:16:04.865 --> 00:16:07.686
The birds aren't stressed, they're not going through the moving stress.

00:16:07.686 --> 00:16:09.966
The poultry keeper isn't stressed.

00:16:10.865 --> 00:16:14.586
And then you can build your system at your end as your new flock grows.

00:16:15.485 --> 00:16:16.270
I built my system.

00:16:16.270 --> 00:16:16.841
It's all about

00:16:16.841 --> 00:16:23.350
stress reduction on the keeper and the birds, and especially in a move cross country is what they were talking about.

00:16:23.515 --> 00:16:34.691
I, I really think that is the less stressful option for everything involved and to reach back, leave your birds with somebody that can always ship you eggs should you have a failure at the other end.

00:16:35.051 --> 00:16:40.490
I really hadn't thought about what you're talking about very much at all, but it makes perfect sense, John.

00:16:40.551 --> 00:16:41.331
It really does.

00:16:42.020 --> 00:16:42.650
Well done.

00:16:43.551 --> 00:16:43.910
Mandelyn.

00:16:43.910 --> 00:16:47.500
Let's talk for a minute and we hit on it and then we moved on.

00:16:47.500 --> 00:16:51.311
But culling yourself out of a flock.

00:16:52.211 --> 00:16:53.711
I know you've experienced,

00:16:54.380 --> 00:17:03.110
I've done it numerous situations, times to completion as well, because I was looking for a certain timeline that my birds needed to perform within.

00:17:03.801 --> 00:17:11.421
And so I went through the gauntlet of breed choices, and then I figured out the nuance that Bloodline has within a breed.

00:17:12.171 --> 00:17:19.820
And so I got pretty good at identifying by about 12 weeks if I was gonna dump the entire flock and start over.

00:17:20.361 --> 00:17:26.016
And I did a lot of start, start just based on 12 weeks.

00:17:26.736 --> 00:17:34.175
And then I got the advice, you should really breed another generation from what you started with to confirm that what you think is true.

00:17:34.685 --> 00:17:38.746
So then I was like, oh, okay I'll try this.

00:17:38.746 --> 00:17:39.976
I'll feed'em like I mean it.

00:17:39.976 --> 00:17:42.675
Like I really wanna express everything in their genetics.

00:17:43.066 --> 00:17:46.486
I'm gonna house them the best that I can.

00:17:47.026 --> 00:17:53.266
I'm gonna give'em ample space, fresh, clean water every day, top-notch nutrition, and let the genetics tell me.

00:17:54.165 --> 00:18:02.326
And then give those genetics one generation to prove what influence, good husbandry and selection has.

00:18:02.655 --> 00:18:11.006
So I ended up doing five generations with morons because I love that a color, but also I needed manageable calls.

00:18:11.036 --> 00:18:17.365
I needed males who were freezer ready in less than 20 weeks, and it took every bit of those five generations to get there.

00:18:18.266 --> 00:18:20.605
But I lost the feather pattern in that process.

00:18:21.401 --> 00:18:23.290
The medias birds had the worst color.

00:18:23.320 --> 00:18:24.671
And I'm like, okay, I'm at that.

00:18:25.121 --> 00:18:32.111
That point of making a decision, are these gonna be ugly but useful or correct and skinny?

00:18:33.010 --> 00:18:34.901
And that's a hard choice to make.

00:18:35.500 --> 00:18:36.191
And this is about F five.

00:18:37.090 --> 00:18:37.631
Yeah.

00:18:37.631 --> 00:18:38.590
Filial generation.

00:18:38.590 --> 00:18:43.296
Yeah you can see really meaningful flock changes within three generations.

00:18:43.671 --> 00:18:52.461
You can get some proof of the method within one generation, after five generations, you ought to be somewhere.

00:18:53.330 --> 00:18:53.391
Yeah.

00:18:53.391 --> 00:18:55.550
They're not gonna be perfect and they're not gonna be done.

00:18:55.550 --> 00:18:58.280
But within five generations you should be somewhere.

00:18:58.280 --> 00:18:58.371
Sure.

00:18:59.151 --> 00:19:06.651
And that inkling of what could be should have happened in generation three with a little teaser at generation one.

00:19:07.101 --> 00:19:11.570
But also between F five and F seven or filial generation.

00:19:12.276 --> 00:19:13.115
Five and seven.

00:19:13.115 --> 00:19:18.246
That span is when you are really need to be hypervigilant on your, you should be

00:19:18.246 --> 00:19:21.215
refining combs and little goofy details by seven.

00:19:21.635 --> 00:19:21.816
Yeah.

00:19:21.816 --> 00:19:28.236
But this is also when your genetic outliers are gonna pop up from your great grandparents and your great-great grandparents.

00:19:28.465 --> 00:19:28.915
Yeah.

00:19:29.155 --> 00:19:36.536
But by then your line, or is gonna be so well established that the outliers are gonna be very dramatic and easy to spot.

00:19:37.435 --> 00:19:39.355
And you're gonna go, where did you come from?

00:19:39.415 --> 00:19:47.915
Oh, and then if you know about your breed history, you can say, oh, this, I can see this is coming from, the Rhode Island red influence on, or whatever.

00:19:48.816 --> 00:19:49.836
And then getting to that push

00:19:50.046 --> 00:19:53.135
and is a lot on your note taking in backtracking.

00:19:53.165 --> 00:19:54.365
How did that happen?

00:19:54.736 --> 00:19:58.576
Hopefully that information is in your notes, hopefully.

00:19:59.476 --> 00:20:01.846
But I tried American breasts.

00:20:01.846 --> 00:20:05.685
So far I'm at four different genetic adventures.

00:20:05.746 --> 00:20:06.766
I really hope that,

00:20:07.665 --> 00:20:08.746
what were you gonna say, Rick?

00:20:08.955 --> 00:20:09.705
I really hope

00:20:10.215 --> 00:20:11.205
you broke up there buddy.

00:20:12.105 --> 00:20:12.615
Ribs got a

00:20:12.615 --> 00:20:13.246
good question.

00:20:13.246 --> 00:20:16.605
I can see, I'm gonna say the question here is that I.

00:20:17.506 --> 00:20:22.425
The really, the importance of patience and progression in breeding.

00:20:23.326 --> 00:20:32.385
You gotta have patience and it's gonna take some time to get your birds to where you want'em, and it's done in little steps.

00:20:32.746 --> 00:20:38.175
You don't, I've never felt like I made a giant leap with my birds.

00:20:39.076 --> 00:20:39.615
It was all

00:20:40.516 --> 00:20:42.195
I do when I.

00:20:43.096 --> 00:20:55.036
Spent the money on some really good birds from a best breeder I could find of the breed I wanted that rocketed me ahead by five, 10 years.

00:20:55.935 --> 00:20:58.635
'cause I was just struggling with what I had, trying to breed them up.

00:20:58.635 --> 00:21:07.455
And it really wasn't a good genetic pool to start with, but getting a hold of properly bred to standard birds.

00:21:08.355 --> 00:21:21.076
That had 20 or 30 generations of skillful breeding already applied to them, made all the difference in the world, and in the end, it's far cheaper than struggling along with subpar birds.

00:21:21.675 --> 00:21:23.236
John, let me ask you a question.

00:21:24.135 --> 00:21:32.415
In doing that, when you went from mediocre birds to superior birds, do you feel like that made you a better breeder in the long run?

00:21:33.316 --> 00:21:47.056
More grateful for the generations and decades of work that other breeders have done before me and more adamant about the need to continue this going forward.

00:21:47.056 --> 00:21:57.135
'cause without it, we're gonna lose everything We need competent, dedicated breeders that are willing to do what's been done since the standard of perfection was published.

00:21:58.036 --> 00:21:59.925
And keep this moving forward.

00:22:00.826 --> 00:22:09.756
But I, did you realize that having better birds or did you find that having better birds made it easier in the breeding process?

00:22:10.086 --> 00:22:11.465
Oh, absolutely,

00:22:12.365 --> 00:22:12.996
absolutely.

00:22:13.476 --> 00:22:15.306
I had much less call rate.

00:22:15.365 --> 00:22:18.915
The calls that did go towards food were much better.

00:22:18.915 --> 00:22:18.976
I.

00:22:19.605 --> 00:22:26.415
Or food value, better feed conversion ratio, better growth rates, better structural, just everything.

00:22:27.316 --> 00:22:32.266
Do you feel like you learned more from the better Bread Birds?

00:22:33.165 --> 00:22:34.246
I learned different.

00:22:35.145 --> 00:22:38.246
We know I, I actually learn.

00:22:38.846 --> 00:22:40.286
At a more deeper level.

00:22:40.405 --> 00:22:46.405
By struggling and having to overcome challenges, it sets the lessons.

00:22:46.705 --> 00:22:57.115
So working with inferior birds and struggling through, I believe made me appreciate the better quality stock for sure.

00:22:57.746 --> 00:22:58.226
That's

00:22:58.226 --> 00:22:58.526
true.

00:22:58.590 --> 00:22:59.830
I had that same experience.

00:23:00.070 --> 00:23:00.250
And then

00:23:01.151 --> 00:23:01.631
I struggled.

00:23:01.631 --> 00:23:10.090
Once I got them, it was so easy to move forward'cause I've already been through all the frustrations and struggles and I was like, okay, I'm through that now.

00:23:10.090 --> 00:23:12.131
All I gotta do is just keep this going.

00:23:12.550 --> 00:23:18.851
Apply everything I've learned to what you know has been done and just keep it going forward.

00:23:19.750 --> 00:23:22.856
If it's too easy, I don't think you'll learn anything's All you're doing's is.

00:23:23.757 --> 00:23:26.787
If you're just going I read on the internet that if I did this would be okay.

00:23:26.787 --> 00:23:28.166
And then you do, and it is.

00:23:28.616 --> 00:23:36.977
So you get this fulfillment that oh, this advice from this person worked that time, so I'm gonna follow maybe this other advice, which may not work so well.

00:23:37.876 --> 00:23:39.676
That level of fulfillment.

00:23:39.856 --> 00:23:47.057
Once everything you've learned comes into that culmination and you're like, wow, this is what it all meant.

00:23:47.136 --> 00:23:48.366
This is how it's supposed to work.

00:23:48.366 --> 00:23:48.426
It

00:23:49.297 --> 00:23:59.166
been 20 years because I spent so much time at the bottom of the market with the junkiest, worst hatchery source birds and going, how come?

00:23:59.196 --> 00:24:02.737
How come these don't do the expectation?

00:24:03.336 --> 00:24:04.027
What's wrong?

00:24:04.027 --> 00:24:07.777
And then I went to the complete opposite end of the spectrum and I'm like let's try exhibition.

00:24:08.451 --> 00:24:10.582
And I was like, wow, these are some pretty feathers.

00:24:11.481 --> 00:24:11.482
Yeah.

00:24:11.991 --> 00:24:14.234
But why am I only getting, 80 eggs a year?

00:24:15.134 --> 00:24:24.134
This is one of the reasons I'm really excited for this batch that you've got in the incubator now of the Chante Claire's from Mark, because you're gonna get to experience this.

00:24:24.375 --> 00:24:24.765
Yeah.

00:24:24.765 --> 00:24:25.755
Mine's this weekend.

00:24:25.755 --> 00:24:30.855
Today is lockdown for my new little adventure, and I am expecting, which I haven't.

00:24:31.045 --> 00:24:31.315
What was your

00:24:31.315 --> 00:24:32.964
fertility rate on shipped eggs?

00:24:33.865 --> 00:24:34.285
Oh that.

00:24:34.285 --> 00:24:36.414
Okay, so this is the news that I have.

00:24:36.454 --> 00:24:39.095
Mark sent me 36 eggs.

00:24:39.335 --> 00:24:42.184
I had to pull two for lack of fertility.

00:24:43.085 --> 00:24:48.664
So I have 34 eggs that I haven't candle yet Today for the final, we're on day 18.

00:24:48.664 --> 00:24:53.674
So today's the day, and I set the same number of my own eggs and I had to pull three of mine out.

00:24:53.855 --> 00:24:57.630
Okay, so the, so now we're gonna look at the shipped eggs.

00:24:57.630 --> 00:24:59.309
Were one egg better than my own.

00:24:59.309 --> 00:25:00.359
That never happens.

00:25:01.259 --> 00:25:01.920
You're right.

00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:02.819
It never does.

00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:04.319
So we'll see.

00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:05.944
I hope they're all still doing great.

00:25:06.724 --> 00:25:07.164
Let's hope so.

00:25:07.305 --> 00:25:08.519
I'm doing that after this.

00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:09.900
Let's hope so.

00:25:10.470 --> 00:25:10.799
Yeah.

00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.279
Gosh, folks, we have gone through another outline here.

00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:23.450
We can almost keep going because the topic is so diverse and so nuanced and so detailed.

00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:27.079
Like you can't beat yourself up and you can't Oh, we'll.

00:25:27.980 --> 00:25:29.930
We will go on and we will beat ourselves up.

00:25:30.380 --> 00:25:30.650
We will.

00:25:30.964 --> 00:25:31.164
Well,

00:25:32.065 --> 00:25:33.805
yeah, that's probably my afternoon plan,

00:25:34.704 --> 00:25:47.825
but I, I just want to tell our listeners, if what we talked about today gave you better insight or changed how you think about culling, share it with somebody that needs to hear it too.

00:25:48.335 --> 00:25:50.900
And we'd appreciate if you would subscribe to our.

00:25:51.275 --> 00:25:55.174
Podcast and Labor Review, because that helps other folks find us.

00:25:55.625 --> 00:26:02.674
You can visit us at www.thepoultrykeeperspodcast.com.

00:26:03.275 --> 00:26:06.095
We've got a lot of episodes out there.

00:26:06.125 --> 00:26:09.724
We've got, we're starting to accumulate a good bit of bonus content.

00:26:10.505 --> 00:26:18.515
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00:26:19.414 --> 00:26:19.954
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00:26:20.375 --> 00:26:21.305
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00:26:21.515 --> 00:26:21.845
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00:26:21.845 --> 00:26:22.505
for free.

00:26:22.654 --> 00:26:22.954
Check it out.

00:26:23.069 --> 00:26:24.785
Actually, you know what I'd like to change that.

00:26:25.289 --> 00:26:26.630
This will cost you something.

00:26:27.529 --> 00:26:32.990