Cutting Costs Can Cost You Money-Part 1

0:00 Hi, I'm Mandelyn Royal, and I would like to welcome you to another episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast. Joining me in the studio are John Gunterman and Rip Stalvey, the rest of our podcast team, and we're looking forward to visiting with you and talking poultry from feathers to function. Hey listeners. Good to have you with us again today. We thought we'd cover a subject that is important to all of us, but let me ask you a question before we get started, have you ever wound up trying to save money and had it cost you more in the long run?

0:44 Been there, done that myself. But that's what we're going to be talking about, how trying to cut costs can be expensive. Coming up in just a few seconds, we are going to get started. Okay, let's see. I guess the place to start guys, is what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Is it cheaper to start a flock by purchasing hatching eggs? What do y'all think? Initially sometimes, but there's a lot of variables in there. And the hatching eggs are definitely not instant gratification. And there's a steep learning curve and the equipment, just a decent incubator, don't consider anything less than, I would say 400 is your bottom of the line.

1:27 Incubator. And, we were just talking about this before we started recording back in the eighties, I was getting 3 an egg for hatching eggs and paying the shipping, basic benchmark price anymore, at least down here's 80 bucks a dozen and it can go upwards of a hundred and plus a dozen if they're paying the freight on them. Then when you figure out that. Going back to the rule of 10, you get a dozen eggs and all of them are not going to hatch. So if you got a 50 percent hatch, you get six chicks. Out of those six chicks, you may, if you're lucky, you may get one that's good enough to keep. Not very good odds. And there you're still picking, what's left after all these other calamities along the way, rather than having, the absolute best possible.

2:17 That's a strong case for starting with a good trio, or quad from a reputable breeder, or starting with, very well started chicks. And I'm going to be honest, it took me a long time to figure that out. Longer than it should have. I think the most instant gratification is the well started chicks. Chicks are not all that good a buy when you stop and think about it. If you've got 25 chicks the rule of 10 says you're going to get 25 chicks. Two, maybe three chicks out of there that are good enough to keep and move you forward. Plus, you got to raise them all and when you look at the cost of what it takes to raise chickens, I was looking this up online and it says to raise replacement pullets, it's going to take about 16 to 18 pounds of feed for lightweight breeds to get them to 20 weeks.

3:08 Yes, and we're going to get into this at the tail end towards the end of the show. Feed is not cheap anymore, but there are some ways you can save money on it. There's ways you can recoup money, Y'all are exactly right. It can be cheaper to start with adult stock. And usually it is because there you've got birds of a known quality because you're looking at them. You don't have to raise them. You don't have to deal with eggs that won't hatch. You don't have to deal with chick losses and sorting through all of that. Somebody asked me one time, what's a good trio cost anymore? They're really hard for me to put a price on that because I've seen really good birds go for 200 to 300 a trio just as a ballpark figure.

3:53 And yeah, that sounds like a lot initially, but when you figure in 25 chicks, I know some people are getting 20 bucks a chick. It doesn't take long at that price to just the price of investment in birds to get started is. It's considerable that doing it that way. So something to think about. I've got birds at 16 weeks right now, and I am practically giving them away at 30 each. That's really the tipping point for me is they're about to go into production. So I'm either going to keep them for egging and for breeding or they're going away. And we're really at the final cut now. I just did some quick math. And based on how many pounds of feed that you had said it would take to get a pullet up to point of lay, and assuming you had 25 that you started with, you're going to be into that batch of 25 chicks, bringing them up to point of lay for at least 200 using a mid grade feed.

4:51 That's exactly right. Plus how long it took to get them to that point versus older stock that's six months old, a year old, they're going to be giving you eggs. And those figures I gave you were based on white leghorns. So our heritage breeds, you're going to be going through more feed than you would with leghorns, just simply because heritage birds are bigger. Raising a clutch is not easy. It's can be daunting and very expensive. And there's a lot of gotchas along the way for the new chicken person. What about John, you talked about this earlier. So let's jump into here, but the preference for incubators or setting hens, what's your thoughts, John?

5:33 I love the convenience and schedulability. and precision of my incubators, but there is no healthier and more vigorous chick in the world than a hen raised chick. So I agree with that. Given the option, I would clean out my incubators and slip them under a broody hen at day 17, as much as I possibly could. But you can't really get away with that too much. How much time would you give her to set before you gave her those eggs? Would you let her set for a week or two or would you let her go through the whole 21 days?

6:14 I've done this as an experiment to break a broody hen because I did not want her shutting off production. She was my number one hen last year and I wanted every egg she was laying. And when she started getting broody and she's sitting on her eggs like the third day I took her away. As many of them in the incubator that was close to hatch and slipped them underneath there. And within the next two to three days, everything had hatched out and she broke her brood and got on with raising those chicks. Okay. So they don't necessarily have to sit too terribly long before they'll jump right into motherhood. I don't, I've never, I don't know, but something about that instinct. I just, It just kicks in. I still prefer my incubators though.

6:56 I like to hatch more than what a hen can hatch herself, and then I like to have a schedule too. Absolutely, and the thing about hens is I never had one brooding when I really wanted one. Oh yeah, there's that too. And you can't say, Hey, I'm going to make you a broody. It doesn't work that way. She's going to go broody when she's jolly well, good and ready to go broody. Not one minute before. Some of them, they can be easily triggered. You show them a pile of eggs and they start fluffing up the next day. Yeah, I agree with that, but I never was so fortunate. And there's nothing more interesting than watching an October hatch and a bunch of chicks running around in the snow.

7:39 But that's when she decided she wanted to go broody and, it worked out. And one of those chicks is super happy and vigorous living with somebody else right now. I had a broody hen earlier this season and I tried to set her up into private quarters and she said, no, I quit. So I put her back in the pen and then a month later, she's back to being broody again. So I left her there this time and I gave her seven turkey eggs. Oh, great. You solve two issues with the same time. Yeah she can try that way. Something to keep turkeys alive. She'll probably put a little fence around her to keep the others off of it.

8:19 Yeah, I think you probably should do that, yeah. John, you were talking earlier about the price of an incubator. Okay explain your thoughts on that. I know we can find incubators for little styrofoam jobs for next to nothing, and then you can find them for well over a thousand dollars a piece. Sure, and I've used just about everything in between. For my classroom hatches at my school, I found Incubator Warehouse makes a great one for about 10. Just under 300. The important part is it has an active humidity regulation. I would absolutely insist on that. No more wicks in tubs of water.

9:00 I want instant response. If a door is open, even for five seconds, I need that thing to kick on and start dumping humidity. That automatic humidity is absolutely spectacular. It really makes a difference in how many eggs, how many of those eggs hatch. Sure, and the temperature regulation is it's perfectly adequate for a tabletop incubator. There's a lot of things with the tabletop incubators you have to mitigate does the room temperature change by more than a degree or two throughout the day? Does sun come in the window and hit the incubator for a half an hour every afternoon? All these little things that you don't really think about until, whoops there's a lot of hidden costs in tabletop incubators.

9:44 The cabinet style, there's, they're always, they're usually very well insulated and protected. The nice newer ones have this active humidity and excellent temperature regulation. I bought one of the external humidity pumps where it had sensors that you would put in and so it was digital, it was all automatic. And it absolutely has to have distilled water. Yep. Okay. No exceptions. If your water has any amount of calcium in there, it's going to ruin that thing in less than a week. Yeah, it will do it. Yeah. Back when I had a GQF cabinet, I put the humidity kit from incubator warehouse on it.

10:25 And that really helped that. unit a lot. And then when I sold it, that went with it to the new owner. Years and years ago, some of their high end hobby incubators, like the humid airs for example, did have that they use steam humidifiers and there's, but man, it made a huge difference. Of course they were redwood cabinets and they would hold temperature and humidity. Spot on, it seemed I keep hoping to find one in a barn sale someday. There's actually a Facebook group. Yes, there is. For old Redwood incubator enthusiasts, and every now and then they come across some real gems.

11:07 Yeah, I've been a member for a couple years now, actually, and I've seen some beautiful restorations and some beautiful barn finds. Oh, they are absolutely gorgeous when they're redone. No doubt about it. One thing I would encourage folks, if you're just starting out, and look, I understand not everybody can start out two, three, four hundred dollars for an incubator. I get it. But do your research. Typically, I have found that those little less than a hundred buck incubators from China are pretty much junk. They don't hold humidity right. They get hot spots in them because the temperature doesn't do what it should.

11:49 And also, look for one that has a fan inside so it's circulating that air. That will help with the hot spots to some degree, although it won't entirely eliminate them. Just get the best incubator you can afford. There's so many variables in keeping everything consistent. The most heartbreaking thing when it doesn't quite work out Is when you have fully formed chicks that right there and that's when they died and they candled great. You get excited at seven days. You candle again at 14 days. Everything seems to be going okay. You get all the way up to hatch day. You might get one little pip and then no action on the rest of them.

12:30 And then you go in there and it was almost a complete loss there at the end. And that's what got me into upgrading every chance I got. Cause my very first incubator. It was powered by a light bulb, it held four eggs, it cost 7. 99, and it had, if I was lucky, 25 percent success rate. And the most symptomatic thing it did was late stage quitters that almost got there. And it was all because of humidity. Was yours the one that had a clear plastic dome on top and a yellow base? Yeah, like a little spaceship. Yeah, I just started to say it looked like a little spaceship. I had one of those. Yeah. It didn't take me long to chunk that. It was a good one.

13:10 I've seen teachers try to use that for classroom hatches. And I went no, please, let me bring you a good incubator. Let me bring you a good incubator. You can use it for three weeks, but just buy the best incubator you can with the funds that you have. It will save you money in the long run through more chicks hatched better and stronger chicks hatched. It's a good, it's a good investment. Absolutely. And that's exactly what it is. It's an investment. Yes, and then what? Then they hatch. Oh, no, they got to go somewhere. Yeah, they got to go somewhere What kind of housing are you gonna use? First you need food and water and heat and Predator protection.

13:54 Yeah, and I see a lot of folks invest in these little Prefab poultry coops that they find on Chewy or Amazon and I gotta be honest with you folks, those things are very flimsy. The wire they use is cheap stuff. It will hold the chicken in but it won't keep a predator out. Chicken wire has no business in the poultry industry. It's good for keeping chicken separated and that's about it. That's it. It's not, I've seen too many heartbreaks of, just chicken wire being torn open by a raccoon and flocks decimated. And I see people go into places like Lowe's and home depots, no offense, Mandy, but they have this black plastic netting.

14:42 Oh, that stuff is terrible. And it can't even, it looks like hardware closet. It looks like it, but it's flimsy. And if you try to use it as run covering to prevent hawks, It actually will collapse in your very first snow. I can believe that. You don't even get a full year out of the plastic stuff. Somebody gave me about 500 feet of 8 foot tall deer fencing. Oh man, did you go hug their neck? I had to go get it, and that was a chore. But that's, that stuff is amazing. It's heavy, it's all get out, and I need a wire cutter. So I've been splitting it down the middle and making four foot panels, and actually zip tying it to the inside face of all my electric fences.

15:27 Making a home version of Poultry One's shock or not fence. So the chicks love to go through the fence. And I can't stop them. This slows them down. But there's bad predators on the other side of that fence. Yeah. And, the size of the lumber, too, and those prefab units, I've When I see some of them, it's like they're made out of furring strips. They're not It's one by one strapping, and they're stapled together. If you're lucky. And the staples, it's not strong enough. Any time you can use screws, you want to use screws, whether you're assembling something or Adding reinforcement or securing wire. I stopped stapling wire years ago because it's too easy for a predator to just pop those staples and peel that wire back.

16:14 Did you use the staples made for like poultry netting or did you use the one in the handguns? The ones in the handguns, half inch. I just started saying because I've used the poultry netting staples, they're like bantam versions of a regular fence staple, with really good success. They're also very sharp, so be careful with them if you go that route. I just go straight over the top with wooden strips, battens I make, and then screw into that. So I've got all this reinforcement and that's being held down. I don't glue it anymore just for future Fixing potential. Honestly, people, the more you can invest in your housing and your coots and your infrastructure, it will save you money in the long run, because if you don't sooner or later and many times it's sooner, you're going to have to replace it and start over again.

17:10 And don't, you mentioned earlier, overhead protection. It doesn't need to be much, just something to interrupt the glide path of the overhead predator. They make a I don't remember which plastic it's made with, but it's a woven netting, looks very much like chicken wire, but it's strong, it lasts, does real well, most of them now have UV protection built into those overhead nets, and it's not really all that expensive. Yeah, I've been using the aviary netting. And it has little two inch spacing and it's UV rated nylon. I get about three years out of it before I've got to replace it.

17:53 And there is better options like, zoo grade, I guess you'd say that lasts a lot longer, but it also costs quite a bit more. Best stuff I ever found best stuff I ever found for Penwire was over at Bush Gardens one day, back when I was working for the game fish commission and I was talking with a reptile and a small animal curator. And he said, I got some wire over here. If you want it, you can have it. We don't have any use for it. It's just been laying around, taking up room. And he had about a hundred feet probably eight foot wide or eight foot tall ZooMesh. And ZooMesh is like a coarse screen that is knitted out of stainless steel.

18:35 Oh, man, that stuff. It was heavy to work with though. I'll tell you that. I bet it lasted a while though. It lasted forever, it really did. It's not going to rust. Yeah. No. It was the best stuff I ever came across. Also horribly expensive. If I had to buy it, I would just do them in at the store. These are all investments in the, hopefully they're long term, but you have to think about, what I'm putting up. Am I putting up regular mesh or galvanized? It may be a couple of cents more per foot now, but it's going to be 10 years more in service if it's galvanized, hopefully, You can buy inexpensive fittings and lumber and wire and yeah, you can make something serviceable out of it for a little while.

19:25 But sooner rather than later, you're going to have to replace it. So think about that bill for the long term. You got to be much happier. Build in your predator protection. While the frame is open, go ahead and wrap it in something, really strong that a bear or raccoon can't easily chew through. Even just a raccoon only needs, what, two or three inches to gain access? Doesn't take much. If your head fits, the rest of them will fit. Yeah. And if you have any ermine problem, Oh man, they can get through a hole the size of a quarter. It's amazing. Chicken wire makes the perfect circle for them to pop right through.

20:07 Oh yeah. They're going to slow them down. Oh, and snakes too. Absolutely. So if you're buying prefab, look at these things. I've had people, friends of mine, they, they hit me up on Facebook. It's Hey, I finally got chickens and I got this thing and I got this thing. What do you think? And I go, okay, yeah good start. You're going to need some predator protection though. Cause you're out in a big field in suburbia. And yeah, the neighbor's dogs are going to be a problem and everything every predator in the neighborhood is going to come in and start sniffing around as soon as you get birds. Be prepared for that. I've said for a long time that here's where I live in Florida. We had everything to contend with except big predators.

20:49 That's what we did. picture has changed. Now there's been a bear that showed up about a half a mile from my house. And there's a Florida panther or some folks know them as cougars or mountain lions within about five miles of the house now. Oh sure. So funny games. We're starting to get squeezed where we are because when we first moved out here it was still really rural. And we didn't have much predator action because their population density is a lot more spread out. Right. Versus when you start getting into more urban areas, they actually have a much higher population density. And now that we're going through that suburban buildup, now we're seeing an influx of raccoons, possum, fox, coyote.

21:37 As they have habitat loss, they're coming into the more established areas like where we are, and I've seen probably three possums just this week. When I used to go a year in between sightings. They're coming out of my eyeballs now. I had to stop putting the trap out because it just got ridiculous. I was trapping something every night in the Havahart and you know what? As long as they're not getting through the electric fence, I'm okay with that. They can live on the other side of the fence and everybody's fine. We're looking into electric options now that we're seeing this increase in the predator population. And some things back when I was living in Ocala, we had electric fencing and the didn't keep everything out.

22:24 I had a heck of a time with a bobcat around it because they could just jump over it with no problem at all. I had a fox go over the fence and take out some chickens. Which was really surprising because it was the taller, I think it was the 40 inch fence that premiere one sells. Just side jumped over it. I was like, wow, that's impressive. Especially coming out with a chicken in its mouth. Okay. Good to know. Okay. Why don't we talk about the cost that I think everybody stresses out over more than anything else. Oh, our biggest expense. Yeah. Feed.

23:04 Yeah. Man, and if you've had chickens very long, you know that it just keeps going up and up. It is not inexpensive, but it's one of those things that can make or break the success of your flock. Absolutely. Jeff Maddox says that there's Three types of feed, basically, we can get for our poultry, and he describes them as low level cheap feed, which he calls deprive, and that middle of the pack feed that he refers to as survive. It does just enough to keep them going.

23:45 They'll lay some eggs, They'll hatch some chicks, but it's not as good as it could be. And then that third level or the highest one he refers to as the thrive feed. These are your premium, high quality feeds that are loaded with the proper amounts of nutrients and amino acids. And we're going to get into some of the things that you can do to keep your costs down there. I think one of the best things people can do is get a set of scales and weigh your birds on a regular basis. Yes. Look for birds getting overweight. Chickens can be serious little piggies at the feed trough. They can overeat in a heartbeat, they can and they will overeat in a heartbeat.

24:27 And palpate them feel the ends of the pubic bone for fat. Pubic bones are those two little pointed bones back under the tail, right around the vent area. And if you can feel with your fingers and if it feels. Fairly sharp, not sharp like a razor, but if it's if it feels sharp, probably not carrying too much body fat. Like the point of a pencil. Yeah. Yeah. If it's more the eraser end, that's a polite way with that, John. But if it feels soft and spongy and more like a pencil eraser, those girls are probably too fat. And what happens when they're too fat?

25:09 Oh production goes down. Fertility goes down. Egg production goes down. Stress on the internal organs goes up. You run the chance of the birds getting fatty liver disease and killing them. Same thing that happens to us. Your birds are known for their light bone. They start getting fat. You got to support that extra density. Can it handle it? This brings us to the close of another Poultry Keepers podcast, and we're very happy you chose to join us. Until next time, we'd appreciate it if you would drop us a note, letting us know your thoughts about our podcast. Please share our podcast with all of your friends that keep poultry, and we hope you'll join us again when we'll be talking poultry from feathers to function.