Sept. 16, 2025

Heritage Poultry Flock Breeding and Management, Part 2

Show Notes
Transcript

In Part 2 of our Heritage Poultry Flock Breeding & Management series, master breeder Frank Reese, Jr. dives into the practical realities of keeping true utility strains going—how many hens you need to maintain genetic diversity, when to share bloodlines with trusted partners, and how hens vs. roosters influence different traits (hens driving body size and skeletal/health; roosters shaping egg production and plumage pattern). We also talk through the business side: define your market before you build, know your state/federal rules, budget for testing and processing, and price realistically.

Frank contrasts heritage strains with modern industrial hybrids (and why extreme selection for only meat or only eggs harms longevity and fertility), then gets delightfully hands-on about how to cook heritage birds—why older cookbooks (pre-1950) and pressure-frying/low-and-slow methods matter for flavor and tenderness. If you’re sourcing stock, he highlights Good Shepherd partners (NJ/PA, NE) and offers timeless advice: pick a breed you love, study the APA Standard, and learn from dedicated breed clubs so you can breed forward without “chasing crosses.”

You can listen to this episode at www.thepoultrykeeperspodcast.com

#PoultryKeepersPodcast #PoultryKeepers360 #PoultryBreedersNutrition #ShowProFarmSupply #HeritagePoultry #StandardBred #FlockManagement #BreedingForward #GeneticDiversity #BarredRock #NewHampshire #DelawareChicken #Wyandotte #RhodeIslandWhite #JerseyGiant #GoodShepherdConservancy #PasturedPoultry #PoultryEconomics #APA #PoultryHistory #CookingHeritageBirds #TrapNesting #UtilitySelection #SmallFlock

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WEBVTT

00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.979
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast.

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In this episode Jeff Mattocks, Carey Blackmon, and Frank Reese, Jr.

00:00:07.849 --> 00:00:14.519
finish up their discussion on breeding and managing heritage poultry flocks.So let's get right to it.

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Now I've been able to do it with under 600, like Barred Rocks between four and 600 hens.

00:00:33.893 --> 00:00:42.533
And I've been able to maintain and keep the line going and keep enough genetic diversity because there was no place for me to go get anything new.

00:00:43.432 --> 00:00:49.003
And mine are the old Ralph Sturgeon bloodline that goes way back.

00:00:49.902 --> 00:00:53.673
Turkeys you need to keep around 400, 500 Hens.

00:00:54.493 --> 00:01:05.263
Now if you're not capable of doing that, then what would be nice is if you can share your bloodline with two or three or four other people.

00:01:06.162 --> 00:01:27.403
And then you guys share eggs and or share chicks, or maybe you go to your every year or two and he'll, they'll let you take a rooster and bring a rooster in if, but you gotta know what a rooster does to a flock, and you gotta know what a hen does to a flock.

00:01:27.462 --> 00:01:29.173
They don't both do the same thing.

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If you wanna improve meat quality.

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Pay attention to your hands.

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The size of your hands will determine the size of your ros.

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You wanna improve egg production?

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Pay attention to your roosters.

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If you wanna improve collar or the pattern that your variety has, pay attention to your rooster.

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He's one that's gonna affect that.

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Overall skeletal structure and health is gonna come more from the hand.

00:02:01.293 --> 00:02:05.102
That's a big mistake a lot of people make with turkeys.

00:02:05.162 --> 00:02:09.872
Say my Toms are all dressing out 20 pounds and my hens are dressing out 10 pounds.

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And I said you need to get rid of the little bitty hen cause it's a Turkey hen that determines the size of your Toms.

00:02:17.522 --> 00:02:19.413
And you can breed great big old Toms.

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And if you breed'em on a little bit of hens, they're still gonna stay small'cause he's just carrying the genes of his mom.

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Got it,

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but, and when I was a kid.

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There, there was many breeders of barred rocks.

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There was many breeders of New Hampshires.

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There was many breeders of Delawares or Wyandottes or whatever.

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And we all basically had somewhat the same line and from the same background.

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And so we were able to share and share roosters or share eggs and that's how we were capable of keeping things going at that level.

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But a lot of that's gone today.

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You got something you wanna ask Jeff?

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Go ahead.

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This makes sense.

00:03:00.657 --> 00:03:04.677
If you're trying to do this and at least maybe break even.

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If not, try to make money.

00:03:06.742 --> 00:03:10.342
I periodically get calls from people who say.

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How can I do what you do?

00:03:12.682 --> 00:03:14.842
Or how can I make money at what you do?

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It's, if I knew 25 years ago when I started this national market, if I had any idea what it was gonna tell, I probably wouldn't have done it because it's been really difficult.

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It's fighting an uphill battle.

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Battle and, but now it's finally getting there and now there's, we have another farm back in New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

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And so we have another farm, breeder farm up in Nebraska.

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It, I'm getting old, but it's finally happening and for the first time this year, finally we're going to do research and I'm getting some attention from, and other people.

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'cause because of what you guys are doing, you're bringing the awareness to this, but.

00:04:02.573 --> 00:04:15.293
If you don't do the work ahead of time, it's like I always tell people when they say they want to do what I do, I say, before you ever get a bird, before you ever build a chicken s figure out what it is you want to do.

00:04:16.192 --> 00:04:21.862
Find, if you wanna sell meat, if you want to sell eggs, go find out what your market is.

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But that market's capable of handling.

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Can you get, my friend back east, he can get twice as much for a dozen eggs as I can.

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My friend out in Idaho and California, they can get three times what I can get for a dozen eggs for eating eggs.

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So you have to determine that.

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And of course I have a big advantage because I raised thousands instead of just, 20 or 30, I could get my feed for probably a half or a third of what, if you go by feed a bag at the feed store, you're paying a lot of money for a 50 pound bag of feed.

00:05:01.442 --> 00:05:09.752
Or if you've gotta go and have your chickens processed at a small mom and pop processing plant, you're probably paying double what?

00:05:09.752 --> 00:05:12.992
I pay to have chickens or turkeys processed.

00:05:13.892 --> 00:05:27.533
I have to figure out, that's the other thing is be, not only find who is gonna buy your birds and where your mark is, or we could, what are your state laws and federal laws and regulations and, do I need state inspection?

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Federal inspections what is my rules and regulations for the state health inspectors and animal inspectors?

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And do I.

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Do I have to vaccinate or do I need to test my birds for Fluor and typhoid?

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Do I need to test for mg?

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And the list goes on and on.

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I spent a lot of money every year, just blood testing birds.

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And so thank goodness I really good vet, bless her heart, she's learned about Turkey diseases because it's not taught in that school as much anymore.

00:06:02.137 --> 00:06:07.548
And there's a lot to consider, but if you're just going to have a backyard, that's the simplest.

00:06:08.358 --> 00:06:12.997
If you're just gonna raise some quality meat, that's better for you.

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'cause we've done all the research on that already during the research on the difference between my bard rock meat and the new meat and the Cornish meat.

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And what you about the grocery store.

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You can avoid all of that.

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You can dress your own chickens and feed your family without all the inspections and everything else.

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But most people at least want something decent looking when they dress it out.

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Frankly, trying define

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quality is really difficult.

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Yeah.

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Frank, what do you think about the new kind of craze behind the American Bresse?

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What's, there's a lot of people chasing after the American Bresse chicken as the basically the new the Yeah.

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French breeds.

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I don't know much

00:07:00.267 --> 00:07:00.807
about'em.

00:07:01.497 --> 00:07:01.947
Okay.

00:07:02.848 --> 00:07:08.548
From the dress birds I've looked seen they don't look any better than my new hands.

00:07:09.372 --> 00:07:13.033
They don't look any better than the, some of the Delawares I've seen.

00:07:13.932 --> 00:07:15.223
At least my New Hampshire.

00:07:15.372 --> 00:07:30.112
I've raised a lot of people also confuse, like Freedom Rangers are I'll get people who will tell me they have bar rocks or they tell me they have whatever, and I'll go and visit their farm.

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And they're not they're just.

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Mass produced Cornish white chickens, Cornish rocks that the industry has put Bard feathers on.

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Yeah.

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They still grow in seven weeks.

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They just happen to have Bard feathers, totally incapable of natural reproduction.

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There was the La Val Rou.

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Which started in France and everything, of course, now that is owned by Tyson, they bought that label out and isn't a breed it's whatever.

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It's more of a way of raising that particular breed.

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Know they were doing the naked necks and all that.

00:08:10.903 --> 00:08:16.572
Now, part of the thing is that you can go to Tyson's website.

00:08:17.427 --> 00:08:25.377
And you can, there, you can pull up all these chickens that they have sale, and some of'em, they'll call them heritage.

00:08:25.918 --> 00:08:29.017
But they're all hybrids of some sort.

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None of them would ever meet the standards.

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They have been designed so you cannot reproduce'em.

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They will grow much faster than mine.

00:08:39.658 --> 00:08:41.067
The American breeze.

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They had to tell that they didn't get in trouble with France.

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I don't see, this.

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And people can raise whatever they want, the free country.

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In fact, I'm glad a lot of the people raise these other things because it makes a difference from what I have.

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To me the most important thing in reading poultry is what I was taught from the beginning, and that is to raise a balanced animal.

00:09:04.988 --> 00:09:12.847
And a balanced animal means that reproduction, muscle development and health and welfare are all imbalance.

00:09:13.748 --> 00:09:17.288
That you don't select one characteristic over another.

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If you select for massive meat production, you'll have no egg production and you'll have no fertility if you select for high egg production.

00:09:27.697 --> 00:09:35.258
If you select for a hand delay 320 eggs a year, she'll burn out in two years and you'll have no muscle mass.

00:09:36.158 --> 00:09:45.967
And both of those extremes, the high egg production or high meat production will affect the health and wellbeing of the animal.

00:09:46.868 --> 00:09:52.807
So it's very important to me that I still select for the wellbeing of the animal.

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And so that means you may get.

00:09:56.258 --> 00:10:09.158
Less eggs a year, or you may get, you may take you two months longer to get'em to market weight, but that animal was capable producing themselves, running, jumping, and flying.

00:10:09.158 --> 00:10:11.768
And you could take my chickens to any country in the world.

00:10:12.008 --> 00:10:18.548
They could reproduce themselves and feed that family without any intervention of man.

00:10:19.447 --> 00:10:26.758
And all these chickens that are being sold in the grocery store would disappear without some form of intervention.

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That they, like the modern industrial Turkey, can no longer naturally make.

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And the industrial broiler is almost getting there, where there it is gonna be really difficult for them to naturally mate, if they keep getting those legs shorter and that brass bro, broader and broader.

00:10:47.447 --> 00:10:57.227
It's funny that you bring that up because right now there's two universities studying using the human drug, Metformin for diabetes.

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Okay.

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To control and limit weight gain so they can extend.

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I'm meeting in Arkansas probably, oh, 10 years ago where some of the growers were raising for one of the big corporations, said, what are you gonna do about the diabetes?

00:11:18.393 --> 00:11:19.623
This is nothing new.

00:11:19.623 --> 00:11:30.732
This is an issue that, necrotic enteritis is probably the biggest problem that they have, and that's a direct result of morbid obesity and rapid growth.

00:11:31.513 --> 00:11:41.347
But what happens is those little chicks are born with hyperthyroidism, and then about three weeks or four weeks into their development, the pancreas.

00:11:41.633 --> 00:11:44.243
Quits producing insulin.

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The, and then the chicken gets very fat.

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The industrial broiler is a perfect specimen for human research on human obesity and diabetes.

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'cause that's what they have.

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Now they're going the other way.

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They're gonna use metformin to control this, to extend the breeder flock longevity.

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Because they're tired of only Yeah.

00:12:10.533 --> 00:12:14.628
If you only gotta raise them for 42 days, if you buy a chick fried.

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Colonel Sanders, that chicken was killed in 38 days, right?

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'cause they found out if you kill 36, 38 days, you can get 10 pieces in a bucket.

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The Cornish rocks that you buy at the grocery store are a little older.

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Maybe another week that, they can get a lot of them if they, if you can totally control their environment you can probably get the majority of them to market.

00:12:42.173 --> 00:12:43.462
The breeders are the problem,

00:12:44.243 --> 00:12:44.452
right?

00:12:44.452 --> 00:12:56.592
Keeping the breeders alive long enough, they have to put'em on a star and diet to keep it from getting morbidly obese because the fatter, the roosters good or the fatter the hens than the sperm count.

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Almost nothing.

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And they've got to do something and so the, the chickens then be, can begin to consume a lot of water because they're hungry.

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And so then there's a lot of diarrhea and, the problems go on and on.

00:13:13.227 --> 00:13:13.888
It's like Dr.

00:13:13.888 --> 00:13:17.307
Ed Best told me a long time ago from Penn State.

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He says, he said, what is sad is we have a poultry scientists today who truly believe that they can outsmart mother nature, that whatever.

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As they begin to produce more and more of these.

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More will be dwarf chickens.

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That whatever health issues they face, we can find a drug or a vaccine to fix it.

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And so eventually, mother Nature will eventually win.

00:13:49.393 --> 00:13:50.923
You can only push, Dr.

00:13:50.923 --> 00:13:59.202
Paul Siegel, the head geneticist at North Carolina said, he says, their genetic diversity is not infinite.

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There is a limit to which you can push these animals genetically.

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They've already cut the amount of genetic diversity in the gene pool in half from their ancestor.

00:14:12.332 --> 00:14:14.643
So that's another whole issue.

00:14:14.643 --> 00:14:18.903
You probably didn't, weren't calling to have me talk about that, but you're right.

00:14:19.503 --> 00:14:23.403
You know the Metformin's, the next step to try to control the diabetes.

00:14:24.302 --> 00:14:34.783
Yeah, for the breeder flocks they're trying to get some longevity out of the breeder flock because they can only get, so many eggs out of those pulls or out of those hens, right?

00:14:34.962 --> 00:14:37.062
They can replace the roosters, right?

00:14:37.092 --> 00:14:43.052
So they'll replace the roosters three times in a breeding flock to keep, in that weight range.

00:14:43.682 --> 00:14:44.582
But they can't.

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Yep.

00:14:44.942 --> 00:14:47.253
They, they can't do that with those hens.

00:14:47.493 --> 00:14:54.123
And by the time they hit 40 weeks old, they can't get'em the, the egg production falls apart.

00:14:54.633 --> 00:14:55.383
Fact they quit laying.

00:14:55.383 --> 00:14:55.653
Yeah.

00:14:56.352 --> 00:15:06.113
So they're only getting about 20 weeks of layout of'em, which, and that, their breeders are lucky to hit 85% production.

00:15:06.452 --> 00:15:08.702
Not, they're never gonna hit the higher nineties,

00:15:09.452 --> 00:15:10.413
the nickel and dime business.

00:15:10.863 --> 00:15:11.673
Yeah.

00:15:11.722 --> 00:15:12.863
But they keep doing it.

00:15:12.863 --> 00:15:17.033
And so I totally, I know a lot of you, I've had the heads of Purdue here at my farm.

00:15:17.033 --> 00:15:23.243
I've had the heads of Tyson, had the heads of Liberty Foods, super kind people.

00:15:23.332 --> 00:15:27.253
I, I've spoke in Washington at a meeting wonderful people.

00:15:27.962 --> 00:15:35.378
And I understand where they're coming from and what they, and I've learned a lot from them, is just not what I do.

00:15:36.278 --> 00:15:36.427
I've

00:15:36.427 --> 00:15:41.977
got hands out there that are 10, 12, 13 years old that are still lying.

00:15:42.878 --> 00:15:43.118
Yep.

00:15:43.177 --> 00:15:45.942
And you can do that and, but people don't understand it.

00:15:45.942 --> 00:15:46.302
Yeah, I can do

00:15:46.302 --> 00:15:46.383
that.

00:15:47.018 --> 00:15:49.538
But unfortunately the American society, I can

00:15:49.538 --> 00:15:50.498
understand it.

00:15:50.498 --> 00:15:52.388
It just doesn't fit into their system.

00:15:52.878 --> 00:15:57.018
The public thinks that our food is supposed to be cheap, right?

00:15:57.067 --> 00:16:06.722
And unfortunately, the US spends the least amount of their earned dollar, their income on food than any other nation in the world, okay?

00:16:07.623 --> 00:16:08.967
Of every dollar they earn

00:16:09.107 --> 00:16:09.528
Turkey.

00:16:10.427 --> 00:16:24.168
I've got turkeys of pictures of turkeys being sold at a meat market in the 1930s, and they were 25 a pound, which sounds cheap, but minimum wage.

00:16:24.288 --> 00:16:27.077
My dad said at that time was 10 cents.

00:16:27.977 --> 00:16:31.097
But even in the fifties when turkeys got up to 40 nines.

00:16:31.998 --> 00:16:34.518
Minimum wage was 75 cents.

00:16:35.327 --> 00:16:39.408
Can you imagine people paying minimum wage per pound for a Turkey today?

00:16:40.307 --> 00:16:40.947
Wouldn't happen.

00:16:41.847 --> 00:16:45.528
But that's what you should be getting for your standard bread.

00:16:45.557 --> 00:16:45.977
Turkeys,

00:16:46.077 --> 00:16:46.408
Yeah.

00:16:46.587 --> 00:16:48.658
Truthfully, in order for you to,

00:16:48.927 --> 00:16:51.207
industry doesn't care about this anymore.

00:16:51.807 --> 00:16:51.898
No.

00:16:51.898 --> 00:16:55.977
They don't make any money off selling chickens or turkeys to grocery stores.

00:16:56.008 --> 00:16:57.177
That's not their market.

00:16:57.687 --> 00:16:59.067
That's more or less their giveaway.

00:16:59.967 --> 00:17:00.207
Yeah.

00:17:01.107 --> 00:17:01.227
Money.

00:17:01.227 --> 00:17:02.457
It's all in the process.

00:17:03.357 --> 00:17:04.018
Yes.

00:17:04.917 --> 00:17:05.998
We're the, they want further,

00:17:06.688 --> 00:17:12.748
74% of all broiler meat being raised worldwide goes to the fast food industry.

00:17:13.137 --> 00:17:13.377
Yeah.

00:17:13.468 --> 00:17:16.798
Chicken nuggets, chicken tenders, something like that.

00:17:16.803 --> 00:17:17.012
That's where

00:17:17.012 --> 00:17:17.573
all the money is.

00:17:18.113 --> 00:17:18.333
Yep.

00:17:19.232 --> 00:17:20.557
It's like turkeys.

00:17:21.218 --> 00:17:30.367
If you go to Subway or the sandwich shop or the delis and you buy Louis Rich Deli, smoked Turkey meat.

00:17:31.268 --> 00:17:36.188
And you're paying$5,$6 for a six ounce package.

00:17:36.218 --> 00:17:41.397
Take that times, ano, get it up to a pound, 16 ounces.

00:17:42.298 --> 00:17:50.097
Now all of a sudden, that Turkey that you bought at Thanksgiving that you paid 98 cents a pound now went up to 10,$12 a pound.

00:17:50.728 --> 00:17:52.018
So that's where all the money is.

00:17:52.917 --> 00:17:53.038
Yeah.

00:17:53.038 --> 00:17:53.097
In

00:17:53.097 --> 00:17:58.407
fact, for all Palm Turkeys being raised commercially are now sold.

00:17:58.873 --> 00:18:03.792
For value added cause they can get a 40 pound to in 19 weeks.

00:18:04.692 --> 00:18:04.932
Yep.

00:18:05.143 --> 00:18:05.863
It's crazy.

00:18:06.222 --> 00:18:07.603
It's crazy what they can do.

00:18:07.702 --> 00:18:08.657
They did what they have to do.

00:18:08.843 --> 00:18:09.772
They're, it's brilliant.

00:18:09.772 --> 00:18:10.673
They're making money.

00:18:11.512 --> 00:18:11.992
They are.

00:18:12.893 --> 00:18:15.022
The average public doesn't know the difference.

00:18:15.123 --> 00:18:16.982
So we're getting close to our time.

00:18:17.083 --> 00:18:25.992
One question that, so if people wanted to get your Newham line, do you sell hatching eggs or do you sell chicks?

00:18:26.482 --> 00:18:27.945
So if somebody, if that New

00:18:27.945 --> 00:18:35.393
Jersey, if they go to Good Shepherd website my partner Chad, he will sell Bard Rocks, Delawares and New Hampshire.

00:18:36.292 --> 00:18:36.502
Okay.

00:18:36.712 --> 00:18:39.173
And these are all being selected for the standard

00:18:39.173 --> 00:18:39.353
year.

00:18:39.403 --> 00:18:42.913
I don't know if even, this is not the time of year to be buying checks now.

00:18:42.913 --> 00:18:50.313
I'm hatching a lot of checks right now, but I've got the facilities to do it all year round, but hatching right now for our research program.

00:18:51.063 --> 00:18:52.262
Plus I don't ship.

00:18:53.163 --> 00:18:54.792
It's just too, I'm getting too old.

00:18:54.792 --> 00:18:57.133
I don't want to deal with all that shipping.

00:18:58.032 --> 00:19:04.073
Why know Jed back in New Jersey or, where he's got all the Delaware, New Hampshire Bar Rocks?

00:19:04.222 --> 00:19:05.363
They all came from me.

00:19:05.782 --> 00:19:13.022
He's young and his wife is young and they're doing a really good and then Blake Bell up in Nebraska.

00:19:13.923 --> 00:19:16.502
Has got my bar rocks, my new hams.

00:19:16.803 --> 00:19:23.792
And he's also got, he's, there, he's got a number of really nice breeds that him and his wife are working on.

00:19:23.792 --> 00:19:25.772
They're a young couple, they just had a baby.

00:19:26.343 --> 00:19:30.292
And he's got a good eye for chickens and that's what it takes.

00:19:30.292 --> 00:19:38.208
Not everybody was born with that eye to be able to, walk into a flock and say, that's a good burden.

00:19:38.208 --> 00:19:39.198
That's a bad burden.

00:19:40.097 --> 00:19:43.428
If I put that hand with that rooster, this is what I'm gonna get.

00:19:43.577 --> 00:19:46.337
So if people want your genetics, they need to come visit you.

00:19:46.637 --> 00:19:47.417
I'm sorry, what?

00:19:48.018 --> 00:19:51.978
So if people want your genetics, they need to come visit you in Kansas.

00:19:52.877 --> 00:19:54.438
In the spring at this point?

00:19:54.468 --> 00:19:55.307
Not right now.

00:19:56.087 --> 00:19:56.117
Okay.

00:19:56.117 --> 00:19:56.417
All right.

00:19:56.417 --> 00:20:09.232
But we're probably gonna have a bunch of them for sale after research, but that'll be this time next year because the egg production research we're doing we plan we'll take nine to 10 months.

00:20:10.133 --> 00:20:11.692
And we'll start in April.

00:20:11.692 --> 00:20:19.587
So next December we'll probably have a bunch of barred rocks and I've got a really nice flock of Orpingtons too.

00:20:19.887 --> 00:20:22.708
Blake's trying to get me to do the Morans.

00:20:23.367 --> 00:20:25.827
He's got a nice flock of Morans up there.

00:20:26.367 --> 00:20:27.843
I know nothing about that breed.

00:20:28.557 --> 00:20:35.307
I know'em when I see'em at shows and so on, but I have no personal history of raising Morans.

00:20:36.208 --> 00:20:38.367
So I don't know what they're capable of doing.

00:20:39.147 --> 00:20:43.597
Yeah, the Newham seems to be the winner or the Delaware from what I've seen.

00:20:43.627 --> 00:20:50.998
'cause you can get you can get pretty close to a four pound carcass on the cock rolls at 14 or 15 weeks.

00:20:51.178 --> 00:20:52.978
If under good management.

00:20:53.637 --> 00:20:55.137
Lot times you can do them at 12.

00:20:55.827 --> 00:20:56.157
Yeah.

00:20:56.397 --> 00:20:58.827
Under good management, good feed and all that.

00:20:58.857 --> 00:21:01.548
You can, you don't have to wait forever.

00:21:01.678 --> 00:21:03.928
On the Newham, so the Delawares yeah,

00:21:04.827 --> 00:21:08.337
but those would be the ones that, try to get you what you can.

00:21:09.057 --> 00:21:17.698
And if you like'em, once you get'em going, then make sure that you go back and get, don't go crossing'em up with everything.

00:21:18.597 --> 00:21:22.928
Not, I encourage people to get a copy of the standards.

00:21:23.387 --> 00:21:25.498
I encourage people to join the APA.

00:21:26.397 --> 00:21:29.127
It's the oldest agriculture organization in America.

00:21:29.877 --> 00:21:36.798
Read up about if you choose the new hamper, if you choose the Delaware or if you choose the road the, and white.

00:21:36.798 --> 00:21:38.208
That's another good breed.

00:21:38.928 --> 00:21:43.962
Learn about'em, research'em, and read the standards.

00:21:44.863 --> 00:21:48.702
Finding good Rhode Island whites is a little more difficult.

00:21:48.732 --> 00:21:51.073
Most of the one,'cause they're to be rose combed.

00:21:51.073 --> 00:21:56.472
And a lot of what I've seen coming out of hatcheries or single combed and about half the size they should be.

00:21:57.373 --> 00:22:00.758
You don't really want one out of a Hatcher Rhode Island White Club.

00:22:00.817 --> 00:22:02.167
They can do that too.

00:22:02.167 --> 00:22:09.917
You can search and go to the Rhode Island White Club and contact some of the people that are focusing on that breed.

00:22:10.548 --> 00:22:14.837
There's a Plymouth Rock Club is probably one of the oldest clubs in America.

00:22:15.738 --> 00:22:20.498
But just make sure you have and learn what they should look like, how they should be built.

00:22:20.857 --> 00:22:23.407
What should they weigh at 10 weeks?

00:22:23.407 --> 00:22:27.488
What should they at 16 weeks, what should their breeding weight be?

00:22:28.387 --> 00:22:33.847
A good Bard Rock Rooster should weigh nine, nine and a half pounds, and she, it does, it don't breed with him.

00:22:34.748 --> 00:22:39.127
It's like a good Jersey Giant rooster should weigh 1214 pounds.

00:22:40.028 --> 00:22:43.978
So you understand your breed and do the homework it takes to do that.

00:22:44.877 --> 00:22:47.458
Yeah, the Jersey Giant takes too long to get there, though.

00:22:47.867 --> 00:22:51.587
You're not gonna put meat on the table in a hurry with a jersey giant, so

00:22:51.827 --> 00:22:52.458
No, you won't.

00:22:53.268 --> 00:22:55.518
It'll be the best eat chicken you ever had.

00:22:55.607 --> 00:22:57.198
Yeah, that's a true statement.

00:22:57.258 --> 00:22:58.337
That's a true statement.

00:22:58.337 --> 00:22:59.932
But be they were my mom's

00:23:00.053 --> 00:23:00.093
favorite.

00:23:00.992 --> 00:23:01.192
Really?

00:23:01.823 --> 00:23:02.113
Okay.

00:23:02.807 --> 00:23:03.077
Yep.

00:23:03.978 --> 00:23:04.667
All right, Frank.

00:23:04.667 --> 00:23:04.738
She always

00:23:04.738 --> 00:23:07.367
liked him because they dressed out five and a half, six pounds.

00:23:07.367 --> 00:23:09.107
Mom didn't care much for fried chicken.

00:23:09.107 --> 00:23:10.218
She liked roast chickens.

00:23:10.637 --> 00:23:15.498
And she could get two young Jersey giant roosters in a big Turkey roasting pan.

00:23:15.768 --> 00:23:19.577
And that was about oh, 12 pounds of chicken.

00:23:20.478 --> 00:23:23.718
And she said that was the best eating you ever had.

00:23:24.438 --> 00:23:24.768
Yep.

00:23:25.667 --> 00:23:27.827
It's a lost art to know how to cook those.

00:23:27.857 --> 00:23:29.567
There's not many people left that know how to.

00:23:29.567 --> 00:23:29.897
Amen.

00:23:30.468 --> 00:23:30.768
Yeah.

00:23:30.948 --> 00:23:31.248
So

00:23:31.307 --> 00:23:38.807
is there anywhere that you know of that someone could get some recipes or do some research on how to prepare a heritage bird?

00:23:39.708 --> 00:24:04.143
I think one of the important things is go to a books, or go to any of these book places or whatever, buy a cookbook printed prior to 1950 and follow what it tells you because the industrial, the chicken everybody eats today didn't exist 60 years ago.

00:24:05.042 --> 00:24:06.252
It's one real fast.

00:24:06.252 --> 00:24:18.103
One of the, my, my friend who's a chef wanted to fix Coco V and so he came and got a chicken from me and he fixed it and brought it back, and I said, this is awful.

00:24:18.163 --> 00:24:31.563
I says, I don't know what you did, but he'd gotten ju Martha Stewart's cookbook, but it was, she revised her cookbook into the sixties to meet the modern.

00:24:32.462 --> 00:24:33.393
Industrial chicken.

00:24:34.292 --> 00:24:39.712
I told him take that chicken back, put it back in the pot with all that stuff.

00:24:39.712 --> 00:24:42.232
Cook it for another three hours and bring it back.

00:24:43.133 --> 00:24:53.182
The jed him and his wife, because she's the chef and she's a graduate from culinary school and.

00:24:53.843 --> 00:24:57.113
She has mastered, she's worked hard to come up with lots.

00:24:58.012 --> 00:25:09.907
But if you can get a cookbook that was printed in the twenties or thirties and follow it, pay attention to those temperatures in that time it takes to cook'em.

00:25:10.807 --> 00:25:11.553
Now you can.

00:25:12.452 --> 00:25:17.972
Thing was to get fried chicken done back in the twenties and thirties and forties.

00:25:18.393 --> 00:25:28.538
You had pan fried, took bread, the chicken, put the lid on, steam it and break it down, and then bring it back up crisp again.

00:25:28.538 --> 00:25:32.647
His big secret is he learned how to pressure cook pressure fry.

00:25:33.458 --> 00:25:35.827
Because he started with Plymouth Rocks.

00:25:35.917 --> 00:25:48.667
He didn't have industrial broilers, and he cut the cooking time down in half by learning how to fry that chicken in a pressure cooker.

00:25:49.567 --> 00:25:52.903
So they did one of my chickens, and they say It's tough.

00:25:53.077 --> 00:25:54.252
And I said then you ruined it.

00:25:54.252 --> 00:25:55.157
You didn't know how to cook it.

00:25:55.732 --> 00:25:57.323
Or you didn't pay attention to what I told you.

00:25:58.222 --> 00:25:58.492
Yeah.

00:25:58.522 --> 00:26:14.792
Now, one of the things you can do is you can take that chicken, cut it up, put it in a pressure cooker, pressure it under about 60 pounds for about five minutes, turn it off, let it cool off, put it in the refrigerator, then take it back out and bread it and put it in a frying pan.

00:26:15.002 --> 00:26:19.682
And you'll have fried chicken as tender as you want in about 15 minutes.

00:26:20.583 --> 00:26:22.173
So there are ways of doing it.

00:26:22.938 --> 00:26:23.238
Yep.

00:26:23.807 --> 00:26:23.958
Okay.

00:26:24.228 --> 00:26:27.678
Either do either low and slow or you pre-cook it.

00:26:27.738 --> 00:26:27.948
Yep.

00:26:27.948 --> 00:26:29.718
Pressure cook it, just like you said.

00:26:29.897 --> 00:26:35.327
And then as soon as it cools off, you can bread it and you just finish frying it to crisp it up.

00:26:35.327 --> 00:26:37.278
It's really already cooked, but yeah.

00:26:38.117 --> 00:26:38.298
So

00:26:38.778 --> 00:26:41.448
it's been around for two or 300 years.

00:26:41.988 --> 00:26:42.137
Yep.

00:26:42.258 --> 00:26:49.488
And they didn't have this modern industrial chicken up until about in the early sixties.

00:26:50.268 --> 00:26:56.387
All those years before and all those hundreds of chickens, my ride and we ate every Sunday.

00:26:57.198 --> 00:26:59.897
They were barred rocks or we ate a lot of fried RINs.

00:27:00.798 --> 00:27:01.877
They were as good and tender.

00:27:01.938 --> 00:27:04.488
You just, people don't know how to cook anymore.

00:27:05.208 --> 00:27:06.857
Yep, that's true too.

00:27:06.857 --> 00:27:07.188
If they're used to

00:27:08.032 --> 00:27:10.712
eating, that's what everybody has today.

00:27:11.613 --> 00:27:17.972
That little chicken that you, that four pound chicken that you buy at the grocery store is only six weeks old when it was killed.

00:27:18.873 --> 00:27:22.202
So that's just a little baby bird, a whole bunch of flab and fat.

00:27:23.103 --> 00:27:24.423
Frank, we're at our time.

00:27:25.032 --> 00:27:27.643
We're at our time for the show anyway.

00:27:27.823 --> 00:27:34.423
One last, just give him, give them the most important advice for starting the adventure you're on.

00:27:35.323 --> 00:27:36.923
What's the best tip that you give?

00:27:37.313 --> 00:27:41.728
What determine what your goal is, what is it you wanna do?

00:27:42.627 --> 00:27:49.137
And then pick a, and then pick a breed that just delights you.

00:27:50.038 --> 00:27:55.107
You just love it, watching it, and you'll put up with all kinds of things.

00:27:55.448 --> 00:28:07.528
If that Bard Rock pattern speaks to you, or if that Rhode Island Red Pattern speaks to you, or when you look through the standard book and you're just blown away by the beauty of the live drama.

00:28:08.428 --> 00:28:12.208
Then become the best light Bresse breeder that you can be become.

00:28:13.107 --> 00:28:22.678
And before you and master that, spend time studying, talk to other breeders, talk to people that have been at it for a long time.

00:28:22.738 --> 00:28:26.218
You can learn so much by doing that.

00:28:27.117 --> 00:28:30.268
And try to buy from individual breeders.

00:28:31.167 --> 00:28:32.728
If at all possible

00:28:33.627 --> 00:28:35.127
and get to know that person.

00:28:35.242 --> 00:28:35.563
Probably no one.

00:28:35.667 --> 00:28:36.178
Probably

00:28:36.178 --> 00:28:38.367
not at the poultry show though, right?

00:28:39.268 --> 00:28:52.553
It all depends on what the breed is, some of the breeds haven't been screwed up yet and some of them have, because they, a four foot tail on a leg and rooster is not gonna produce you any more.

00:28:52.553 --> 00:29:00.413
Eggs may be pretty in the cage, but it isn't gonna do nothing for that utility, for that egg production.

00:29:01.313 --> 00:29:09.923
Sometimes though, if, even if you get some of those hidden within the genes of that bird is its ancestor.

00:29:10.823 --> 00:29:14.673
And if you breed select, you can bring it back out again.

00:29:15.573 --> 00:29:22.833
I would say a lot of those shere birds are probably closer to their ancestor than what you're gonna get from a catalog.

00:29:23.702 --> 00:29:24.272
That's true.

00:29:25.173 --> 00:29:29.077
Now, some of the really odd, not odd, that's not fair.

00:29:29.498 --> 00:29:29.877
The more.

00:29:30.752 --> 00:29:49.928
Unusual varieties like the Alaya or the crevices or the shemos or some of those breeds from the catalogs usually aren't too bad because they're so rare and they're so few of them.

00:29:50.647 --> 00:29:52.978
They can't they haven't messed them up.

00:29:53.877 --> 00:30:02.157
What they've messed up is what I call the historical American utility breeds the old working chickens of America.

00:30:02.337 --> 00:30:17.557
The Bard Rocks, the New Hands, the Delawares, the true American breeds the wand dots, and those are the ones that are screwed up and are really, and they need a lot of work.

00:30:18.428 --> 00:30:22.478