Is Your Flock Ready for Winter? Weight & Body Condition Matter-Audio Edition

SPEAKER_04 0:23

Good evening. Have a question. Do you know the difference between a bird's weight and a bird's condition? Well, coming up, we're going to explain it all to you so you will be an expert in it. I want to welcome everybody to the show tonight. We got a we got a lot to cover in a short time to get there, so let's go ahead and start right out here. Somebody's and as a matter of fact, we were just talking about it just before we came on air. Why are we talking about winter topics right now? Well, that's simple because we want to have you you prepared in ample time to make any adjustments you need to make to your facilities or your your feeding routine or everything to get your birds through winter in good shape. Let's say you got a chicken that looks big and fluffy. What does that tell you about what's underneath those feathers? Anything? Exactly right. I saw a ladies Buff Orpington, great big, it was an English Orpington, great big bird. And she some of her birds were dying from heat stress. And that bird looked like he would have weighed 30 pounds, and when she got those feathers cut off, some of them were 13 inches long, and I bet you he didn't weigh seven or eight pounds. So that's one of those things you can't judge that book by its cover. You literally have to use your hands and feel what's underneath all those feathers.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Isn't that detrimental though to take their feathers off? Don't the feathers help cool them as well as warm them?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Do they it it buffers and regulates body temperature? So you are 100% correct. So on the hotter days, it keeps them from getting extreme. And on the cooler days, of course, as insulation, it's excellent insulation.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Yeah, I try to think of it as like insulation in your house.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

115 degrees outside, you got two feet of insulation or two feet of feathers, it slows down how hot it gets. It prolongs the process to getting to their core body.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Yeah, and I want to make sure that everybody who's with us tonight understands that we're not trying to make you paranoid about a bird's weight, although you certainly need to pay attention to it. We want you to be able to establish what's normal for your flock, and that way you can recognize any meaningful changes that you might observe in your birds. Somebody said one asked me one time, said what do you mean by weight? Well, how much does the bird actually weigh? Do you have a set of scales? Carrie, you got a set of scales? I have two. You got your scales? Yep. I had my scales too. So, but with that said, scales are not going to do you any good unless you use them. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

I you know, I made the foolish assumption that all good chicken breeders had a set of scales to monitor body weight. You know what? I was wrong. Yes. I was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Do you know many that are do you know many that are actually good that don't?

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Um not many. But you know, I just how do you know what you got unless you weigh it? Right. The standard gives you a weight range, and that's where you're supposed to be. And you know, the judges are not docking for overweight as they should be. They should, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

They don't they don't carry scales around. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

There was a judge who tried that one time and he just about got railroaded out of the show.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

So that tells you something about the weight of the birds in that show.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

They're more worried about how long it took them to judge birds than uh the way he actually down that road.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Now you're up in worms.

SPEAKER_04 5:11

No, we ain't gonna talk about that. What do we mean by body condition? Jeff, what does body condition mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Body condition is a combination of uh to me three things, right? The fullness of the bird, and um, but that means, you know, how is the muscle density, you know, is it firm, squishy, other? And also how much fat is the bird carrying, right? So all three of those kind of fall into my definition of body condition.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

Okay, I would agree, I would agree, and and you know, we've talked multiple times over the year. You know, we've been doing this five years, guys. We've been we've we've talked multiple times over five years about how do you determine if a bird is overweight? Hands, use your hands, that's the only way you're gonna know. That's Jeff. Give them your 50 cent version of how you tell.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Look, I am really poor at feeling abdominal fat. I am I don't trust my squeeze technique. A, B, I don't want to injure something inside the abdominal, right? Last thing I want to do is, you know, pinch an intestine or whatever and cause trauma. So, you know, I pick the bird up, I put her head, his or head, the bird's head, you know, under my arm, usually my left arm, and I feel right below the vent for the two pelvic bones. And I'm feeling for the sharpness or the lack thereof, not the spacing, not anything. I'm actually feeling, you know, for the firmness or the sharpness, more of the sharpness, not firmness, because they're supposed to be flexible. So uh the way I, you know, the way I look at it is am I feeling the end of a ballpoint pen, you know, because the tip of a ballpoint pen retracted, okay, is about what a pelvic bone should, a good pelvic bone should feel like. Or am I feeling something like a cotton swab that's rounded, soft, squishy, spongy, whatever word you want to use. For me, that's an easy way to tell, you know, how much. And then I've had people say, I can't feel the pelvic bones, and I know that the fat level is really bad. Okay, if you cannot distinguish those pelvic bones, you are so grossly overweight. It's a wonder your bird's still alive, okay, to be truthful.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

We've talked about weight and we've talked about condition. Can weight well, let me rephrase that. Two birds can weigh the same thing, okay? And have is it true or false that they can have quite different body condition?

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Oh, that's true. Yeah. Very true. Yeah. Because whenever you pick say you got two pullets and you're assessing both of them, you pick one of them up, and as your hands go under, you can feel the keel bone, but you can also feel the muscle mass on each side of that keel, and you know, how thick and or firm that it is, and then you pick the second one up and your fingers sink past that keel bone. Well, you've got no you got no muscle mass on that breast.

SPEAKER_04 9:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

So either that bird's not eating correctly or she's behind, you know, something something's going on. I would pay attention to that second one.

SPEAKER_04 9:17

And when I'm holding the bird like that, I'd like to use a cup of my hand and put their breast in here. And then I can just squeeze a little bit side to side. And and if it feels like the bird has a V-shaped body, that is no condition. There's very little muscle mass there. What you want is something more U-shaped, like that.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yep. Yep. Or it feels your hands up.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Exactly right. But but I do want to feel the keel bone.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

When you get a bird, yeah. When you can't feel they're not Cornish cross. The birds we're raising are not, you know, commercial meat birds. So you should be able to feel the edge of that keel bone in the palm of your hand. Yes, you want that U-shape, Rip. I agree with you 100%.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

But not to the point where they're so loaded with fat that they're standard bred birds, you're supposed to be able to feel that.

SPEAKER_04 10:22

A good friend of mine in Judge Walt Leonard used to have a saying, he said, I want to feel the keel bone, but not until I'm looking for it. So we've talked about why hands-on familiarity matters because it's the only way you can be sure other than processing a bird. What might excessive condition feel like? I and then I think we've kind of touched on it here and there and around, but I you know, if it's a soft, spongy feel to it.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Dowy.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

I was gonna say it's like if if you've made dough, like made real biscuits, not picked them out of a can, you know, it'll feel about like that. Or if you wash dishes by hand and use the rag, it would feel like a wet rag. You know, something along those lines.

SPEAKER_04 11:35

Before we move on, I I just want to add this in here. When you're checking body condition, you need to do it more than once a year. You need to be handling your birds very, very often. Jeff's over there nodding in agreement. I I know folks that they well, I checked body condition when they were six months old, and it's a three-year-old bird now. Oh, geez. That doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Or they pick them up or they pick them up a month before they want to take them to a show, and they realize that and you can't fix it in 30 days.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

No, like to me, the only time you should not hold your birds for three weeks in a row is right now when they're molten. Yeah, when they start molten, leave them alone. When the feathers start coming back, make sure they lost enough weight, and then leave them alone until they get their feathers back. But other than that, you're gonna pick somebody off there.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

People don't want their birds to lose weight. That's mean and it's cruel, and it you know, it's not well.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

You know, some of us have to lose weight to avoid passing early. You know, that's that's why I lost weight.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

People don't understand that a natural molt of a chicken not being spoon-fed by a helicopter mom, okay, is supposed to lose weight, it will do it all by itself. That is part of the cycle. And when they fail to lose that weight during the molt, you're shortening their life. Just bottom line.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

They're a lot smarter than a lot of people give them credit for.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But people don't spend time watching there and doing the observation, which is how we reopened this whole segment line. You know, if you just actually sit there and watch your chickens right after feeding them, okay. It's it is great entertainment, A, right? It relieves a lot of stress from the day, but you can learn a lot.

SPEAKER_04 13:57

And I like to tell folks to keep their hands in their pockets because their hands in their pockets are not tempted to be doing something else other than watching the birds. Yeah, like looking at your phone and taking pictures. Yeah, or don't even take the phone to the coop.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:17

And you know, make notes, not just mental notes, but pencil and paper notes, because you're not gonna remember it. If you're like me, you're not gonna remember it by the time you get to the coop door to go back up to the house. But it's not funny, suited hurt.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

I'm right there with you, Rip. Right there with you.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Well, you should be journaling it. And uh, you know, statistically, if you write something down, you see it and write it down, you're gonna retain it longer in your memory anyway. You may not have to come back and look at the journal, but just the act of writing it down puts it deeper into your memory. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

Plus, I I think it gives you one more way to be actively involved with your birds when you're doing these sorts of things. We're not suggesting you do these just for fun, but because there's a genuine purpose in observing your birds, writing down what you see. Don't see a bird that's acting a little bit off, and the first thing you do is you grab who knows what to treat it with. Oh, it's gotta be core.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Corrid, ivermectin, yep, yeah, Tylen 200. It's just crazy.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

I've had people come in the store and I'm like, and they'll say, Well, I need some feed, and you know, there's like 300 bags back there, let's narrow it down some. And I started asking questions, and they're like, Oh, they're just you know, layer chickens. But and that may be you, whoever's watching, and I'm okay with that. But if you want your just layer chickens to keep just laying five eggs a day, I mean five eggs a week, you've got to keep their body in check. You've got to keep them healthy. You know, if if they if you want them to be the egg machines that they were born and bred to be, you've got to give them the nutrition to support it, and that does not include a lot of treats. Just like your kids.

SPEAKER_04 16:35

Yep, yep. I agree 100%. Okay, guys, let's talk about what are some winter changes we can expect to see in our birds.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

They'll start eating more.

SPEAKER_04 16:57

What about any behavioral changes? Uh go ahead, Jeff.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

You start you know, you know, Carrie hit on it, and we actually have a question along those lines, right? So Melissa, Melissa is looking at changing from free feeding to a scheduled or controlled feeding, okay, which I strongly encourage. I'm great, right? And they're starting the molt. Hopefully she's got a molt feed or a plan, right? So that this happens properly. But no, you don't have to, you don't have to be gradual with your change, you know. Just go ahead, cold turkey it and make it happen, you know, and then which we talked about, monitor body weight, monitor body condition, you know, and you know, make sure that you're feeding the right amount, you know, or reach out to one of us with a feed tag of what you're feeding, you know, and we can give you a good idea, and the breed, and we can give you a good idea of where your starting point for how much feed. So the the biggest to me, the biggest issue with limiting the amount of feed that they have is you have to make sure that there is room for every bird to eat at the same time, comfortably without competition. Okay, that's where people fail. Okay, they have one feeder and they want to feed 20 chickens, don't work that way. Okay, nope. Controlled feeding, you have to have enough access space to feed for every bird to eat at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Okay, and I would say comfortably for large fowl, that would be five, six inches at least.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

It is. You can you can almost say for every one pound of body weight, a live body weight, you should have about one inch of feeder space. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 18:52

Now that's a good reason.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Some of your more unique birds, like if you were doing a shameless or you were doing like a really tall skinny bird, they don't have the shoulder space requirement. And I've told people in presentations before when I'm talking to groups, is like, think of it this way, right? Thanksgiving dinner. Okay, the bigger the people are, the more space you gotta have at the table for them, right? So, you know, when I was five years old, I only needed about 14 inches. Well, now that I'm 60 years old, I need about 24 inches. Okay. So same difference, you know, the same rule of thumb applies, you know. So the bigger the bird, the more space you need for them. But it's it's pretty simple. People would just think about it, you know, and and put it into you know, a human analogy, it's really not that hard.

SPEAKER_04 19:47

Now, I was just gonna compliment you on coming up with such a great analogy about feeder space. I think you did really good on that one there, Jim.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

I like analogies, I can't help it.

SPEAKER_04 19:58

So Kerry mentioned the birds are probably gonna be eating more. But what should our listeners reasonably expect to see with the change in temperatures, change in in seasons and all that? What should they see for feed consumption and water consumption for that matter?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Well, I mean, when it gets cold, water consumption goes down, unless you're providing them with warmed water. Okay. They'll maintain, you know, I I they should be drinking six to eight ounces of water a day, depending on the bird, you know, how much feed it's twice as much as the feed they eat is the water they're drinking by weight. So, you know, and how much feed do you need to feed depends on the quality of that feed. You know, so looking at a feed tag, talking to somebody who will walk you through it. Don't be afraid to have your feelings hurt, you know, because I know this crew, we we're gonna say it black and white. And if you're easily offended, we're not the right people to talk to. Okay. You know, there's people on Facebook that'll tell you you're doing the right thing. They're lying to you, but they're gonna tell you you're doing the right thing. So look, you really don't shift the amount of feed going into winter. Even our friend Kelly, who's watching tonight up in Saskatchewan, okay, Saskatchewan, central Saskatchewan, temperatures in the minus 20, minus 30, minus 40, okay. Fed the same three ounces of feed all winter long and maintain just fine body condition. Okay, people just like overreact and they need your, you know, react, and they start, you know. Your bird is fine. My birds, and I had my flock in the backyard when my daughter was younger, okay, really needed nothing else. Extra until I felt pity for them when we got down into the teens. Okay. And then just a little bit of extra crack corn. And when I say a little bit, it's like a half ounce of crack corn. Don't don't get crazy with it.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

If you had pity for your chickens, I did.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

You know, they were, you know, initially they were pets. Okay. They weren't, you know, they were they were my observation group. I wanted to know how much abuse can chickens tolerate from a teenage kid. Okay. And they can tolerate a lot. All right.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

But you look out there and see their teeth and felt bad for them.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

They have excellent resilience. Look, my birds had an awesome three foot-high roost. Everybody was at the same height, right? We didn't, you know, that was my one socialist socialism act in my life is I made them all equal when it came to roosting. Okay. So there was no fighting.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

That is a quick way to start a fire funding.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:03

So it worked. Jeff, let me bounce back to what you were saying about Kelly up at Saskatchewan.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

Only because I'm sure there's some of our listeners that have this question running around in their mind. Was he feeding the same feed formula year-round?

unknown 23:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Same one.

SPEAKER_04 23:23

Kind of what I figured, but yeah. I know there's folks out there that want to adjust this and that and everything else.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

And is it in Poultry Keepers 360 or is it in Poultry Breeder Nutrition Group? But you know, there's there's a heat or there's a like a temperature feed calorie chart that I've put out there on PDF. And it helps. It should be in the file section, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

And it really just kind of describes how many calories your chicken needs based on the temperature. Okay. So yeah, it's it's out there.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

Should we manage our birds differently based on their actual body condition?

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Say that again, Rip. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_04 24:24

Should we what should we manage our birds any differently when they're out of body condition?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

When they're out of body condition?

SPEAKER_04 24:32

Yeah, either way, if they've got they're overconditioned or underconditioned.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

All right. So I mean, you you should adjust the feed, but like an overconditioned bird, I would want to have a slightly higher protein feed and cut back on the the total being fed and kind of force them to start burning off body fat gradually. Okay. So cut their calories way back, but you still want enough protein that they're gonna lay an egg, and vice versa. So, you know, if I've got birds that are underconditioned, that's when I would be feeding like a 16% layer or an 18 layer and adding a little bit of cracked corn to it, but you got to be careful, right? Because corn goes to fat pretty quick. You you can't move the needle on body condition quickly, right? You're you're looking at 30 to 60 days to start getting things in alignment depending on how far out you are. So it's not yeah, it's not an overnight. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 25:45

We talked about mold a little bit, but one thing that we we didn't really address is the nutritional demands on a bird when they're going through the feather replacement stage.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

So people don't, you know, and we've talked about molt, and we've got two or three shows on mold out there, and people should go watch them, right? So the nitty-gritty is this, right? The molt should be about a 45 to 60 day process. So the first half of that should be this really high fiber, low protein, low energy feed, you know, something similar to feeding basically oats, right? Only oats, whole oats. And then you make that switch over. Once the feathers are dropped, body conditions achieved, or body weight is achieved, right? And then you coming out of the molt, you feed higher than normal nutritional levels. So almost like putting the birds on a 20%, not a layer feed, put them on like a really good starter feed, right? So this you're getting, you're achieving those extra amino acids and the components for building good feathers. So at about 20 days in, you switch from the low protein stuff, high fiber, to the higher nutrition level feed, bringing them out of the molt to ensure that you're preparing the right, you know, that you're preparing the follicles, you want the best feathers possible. But, you know, I don't, I, you know, I've kind of quit kicking this dead horse because nobody listens, but you know, everybody out there, you know, they're going into the molt. Increase the protein, increase the protein. It's like, not yet, not yet. Okay, just give them a chance to drop their feathers. But the birds feel like crap, you know, the birds themselves feel like crap, not what they feel like to you. It's kind of like going into a flu. You know, that that body ache, that fever, that little fever, that you know, you just feel like crap, maybe a little bit of diarrhoea, your body aches. That's kind of what your chicken's doing in the first 10 days of the molt. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 28:10

The last thing a lot of people don't realize that they actually get a temperature spike in their body.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Yeah, they don't. They jump right on, and and to digest protein creates more body heat than than than carbohydrates or fat, right? So you're just kind of pushing them the wrong direction. But people don't want to hear it. They don't, I I they just cannot get their mind wrapped around that. And I don't I don't know why. But hey, your chickens, your money, your time, you do what you want, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:44

Maybe one day, Jeff.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

I'll be dead by then. You know, 30 years from now, somebody's gonna find an old video clip. Man, this guy had it nailed on molting a chicken, right?

SPEAKER_04 29:01

Well, we already knew that, Jeff. I mean, you got it nailed, man.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

But everybody's afraid to do it, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:10

It's hard, hard to beat science.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Uh well, there's too many people out there telling you push the protein, push the protein, push the protein, right? Everywhere you turn around.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

That's the first thing I've heard for years.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

Uh yeah, I've I've heard it. People say push the protein, and the ones that use I feel, but they don't have any any scientific research to back it up.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Nope.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Those are the ones that get me.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

You know, we everybody's got opinions.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Show me the scientific research.

unknown 29:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

You know, the commercial industry has been molting chickens and doing the research for near on a hundred years. Right. So you know, why why are we bucking it? You know, if it was brand new research that came out in the last decade, I would say, you know, it's probably bought and poured paid for research, you know, by some big pharma, big feed company, whatever. But, you know, when you can find stuff in the 40s before Big Ag, Big Pharma, yep, and all that took over our land grant colleges, you have something worth talking about, okay?

SPEAKER_03 30:23

And it's out a lot of times when you compare it to the the new stuff, it's not a whole lot of difference. That's like recently they published a new book specifically about poultry nutrition. It's the first time they did it in over 30 years. Not a lot has changed. Chickens ain't changed a whole lot.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

No.

SPEAKER_03 30:47

But like what you said a while ago, Jeff, the the commercial industry, especially, who really cares about their profit margin, spends millions and millions in research to make sure they're getting every single percentage of profit out of everything that goes in that bird.

unknown 31:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 31:08

Yeah. And you know, if people want to find those studies there that these big breeding operations are doing, they're available online. Yeah. Go to their website. They're under.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

But they'd rather listen to Joe Schmoe down the road who you know talks more than he knows anything.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

And you know, well, you know, Jeff, I I think, well, I want to hope that a lot of that's because people don't feel like they have the time to read, so they just listen. But in this wonderful world of technology that we live in now, you can find that research and your phone will read it to you. You know, when I'm in Missouri right now, and on the interstate, I had my phone read me a book.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

So you know, you don't have to listen to people that think you can find the science and get your phone to read it to you.

SPEAKER_04 32:12

Now I got a question. Did it read it to you in a Missouri accent?

SPEAKER_03 32:17

Well, so I started it in Alabama and it had a really strong southern vernacular. Then I hit Mississippi and it got a little crazy. I don't even want to talk about when I went through Tennessee, and then when I hit Arkansas, it was crazy.

SPEAKER_04 32:38

You know, I really knew better than ask that question, but I stupidly asked it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Before we move away from the molt, Chris has a question, and he goes, if all of his birds hatch at the same time, do they all start molting within a given time frame? Chris, they should it it's within a 30-day window, but they should start very similar. All of them are on the edge. When you see the first one molting, all of them are on the edge. They're waiting for some environmental trigger to get it started. So as soon as you see the first one or two, uh, you know, you should encourage the rest of them into molting at the same time. It it helps your management and it actually helps their longevity.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

So I do want to add, if you have birds in one spot where there's a ridiculous amount of shade, and then you have birds pinned up in another spot that gets full-on sun, you'll notice a variation there. Because the the length of the like when the day changes, that's when a lot of it starts that cycle in their bodies. So that's where that 30-day change comes from.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

And if you if you have stubborn birds that don't want to molt, and and I'll tell you that a bird that has got way too much body fat and overconditioned will linger longer in dropping feathers than a bird that is in prime body condition. Okay. Yep. But if you and some of the harder breeds, you know, in in like the games, shamos, ACELs, etc., they're a little bit more stubborn and hard to breed, or hard to molt. So I learned this from a gamefowl guy. But if you put the bird in darkness, you only bring them out for about an hour to eat and drink. But you if you put them in a complete darkout, it speeds up their willingness to molt with everybody else. So you only have to do that for two or three days. But there's always somebody who's going to be stubborn about losing their feathers, right? And so you just have to have tools in the toolbox to help you, you know, deal with it and get ahead.

SPEAKER_04 35:12

Hey, before we move on, I got a little break I'd like to take here. So give this a listen. We would like to take a short break to express our appreciation to the Pro Trail Company for their sponsorship of the Poultry Keeper 360 Live programming. For Trail has been a trusted name of sustainable farming and folk industrial for decades, and their commitment to providing high-quality, natural products aligns perfectly with the values we hold there in our poultry community. Thank you, Protrail, for partnering with us to empower poultry keepers everywhere. We're truly grateful for your dedication and support. To that, I can only add, amen. We are very thankful for Vitrail.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Rip, we're more than happy. You know, it isn't a big investment, you know, just covering the cost of StreamYard and a little bit of stuff. I do want to tell everybody that October 3rd, Fortrell is having its 80th anniversary. So we're having a large open house. And anyone and everyone is welcome. You know, just show up, right? You don't have to reserve, you don't have to RSVP, you just come on in. And we're having this as a family fun day. So we've got games for kids, we got games for adults. I'll tell you what, we even have an axe throwing trailer, right? It's a like a 16-foot or 20-foot trailer coming in. It's fully encaged, so nobody can hopefully nobody gets hurt. But you can do axe throwing. We're gonna have a dunk tank. I'm gonna be in the dunk tank for the first two hours that we do the dunk tank.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

I was thinking to say, I was fixing to point that out because I was gonna tell all those ladies out there that have birds that you've made comments about and they've made you mad, they can come and make a donation and throw balls at you at the target to get you to dunk as many times as possible.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

And you know what? They're actually cheating on this dunk tank because if you don't want to throw the balls and you just want to see me get wet, you can just push the button and drop me in the water, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:49

You don't even press the plane ticket, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

So it's it's for a good cause, yeah, which you know, raw entertainment. And I'll say this if somebody does come, one of our viewers comes and wants to do that, I will video it and I will send them the video, and we can even share it on our webpage, on our Facebook page.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

There you go.

SPEAKER_04 38:19

Okay, moving along here. I've got a somebody asked me this question, and I thought it was worth putting in here. Does winter time affect birds based on their age and their life stage? For example, young pullets just getting ready to come into production versus a two or three-year-old hen.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

What you thought the two, three-year-old hen's probably gonna stop laying. Whereas the pullet will probably lay all winter.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

If she started, if she's already started. Yes. So but without doing the lighting for sexual maturity, she they're not going to they're not gonna reach their full potential. So this is where keeping your pullets with your older flock is maybe not a great idea, because you don't want to miss that that stimulation for peak. So yeah, it's going to affect them, Rip. You know, I'd kind of like to see everybody kept at 12 to 13 hours of light and never let it drop below that. Just, you know, and it actually keeps them calmer. People don't understand. They think that light stimulation is actually stressing the bird. And it is, if the if you have too much light and you did it wrong and you've got like, you know, 400 watt bulbs and a 10-foot square, yeah, they're gonna drive them nuts. But if lighting is done correctly, I found my birds were calmer and had better dispositions when I kept the lights consistent, right? Um not not 14 hours, doesn't have to be 14 hours, but somewhere 12 to 13 is a really good number. And then you have room for the stimulation in the spring to start bringing them up gradually to get get your eggs when you want them. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 40:26

And it doesn't take as long to bring that light up if you got them on that consistent schedule like it's you have. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Well so, yeah. And Rob just asked the same question you did. You know, do younger birds have more trouble with the cold? They don't, right? They don't really need the extra fat, they don't have any troubles with it. Okay, Rob, that's if you know, I'm I'm making assumptions that they're on a pretty good feed, right? Not the cheapest, you know, floor sweepings that tractor suppl tractor supply sells. But, you know, provided that they're on a good feeding program, right? They don't I always kept four to six inches of straw in my hen house through the winter. I felt that if I can keep their feet insulated, that was the biggest battle. If I can keep their feet warm and dry, that was the biggest battle. Right. Everything else above that does fine. Everything that's feathered does fine. Here's a question I can't answer. Sue, Rip, Carrie? Is there a chance a hen with three-day old chicks to adopt a day old one? Sue, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Actually done that? And what do you have to do? Go in there at night and put that chick. Am I blinking?

SPEAKER_00 42:10

You're okay, you're back now. Go ahead, start over. You've done it.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

Okay. Go go out in the middle of the little chick up underneath that hand so that she can smell it and hear it all night long. And then first thing in the morning before the sun even comes up, you be out there and watch her. And I know the little hand that I put it under was a buff Orpington. And she pecked at the little chick once, and I kind of tapped her on top of the head, told her no. And after that it was just like, okay. And she took off with it. So it can be done, but you might have to.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Orpingtons are more better for adopting um just their their their nature.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

So I I would think that some might not. Like I wouldn't try that in any of the game breeds that could be iffy. It could be possible, but it could be iffy.

SPEAKER_03 43:05

I mean, you've got some hens that they're not good mothers anyway.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

You know, I I've got some hens that lay religiously that will once they go broody, they'll set on them, do really well. But after about two or three days, them chicks start getting on their nerves, and they don't put up with it. So you got you got a day or so to get them out of there, put them in a brooder.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

I had a little ban on coaching, I think she would have brooded the turtle. I mean, she she took anything, anything.

SPEAKER_04 43:43

And and I'm kind of chuckling here, but I want to convey to the listeners that this is a real prime example of why there shouldn't be one universal ideal.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Right.

SPEAKER_04 43:55

Right.

unknown 43:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:56

When you're working with poultry. There's a lot of very From bird to bird, from breed to breed, in management. It's definitely not a one-size-fits-all hobby.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

Yeah, that's why I say you you've got to be out there in the morning before the sun comes up to watch when that chick starts wrestling around, she's going to recognize that it it wasn't there yesterday.

SPEAKER_03 44:23

I'd say for more than one day, too.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

So Rob in Chattanooga, he's more worried about the very young birds. Rob, after they're three weeks old, they should be once their hard feathers are on. I'm not worried about it. Now you're going to keep feed up for them, you know, 24-7 and let them self-regulate. But they can regulate their own body temperature after 10 to 14 days. So once they've fully feathered, I'm not worried about them. They're fine. Just keep their feet dry and insulated. Okay. Don't no mud puddles, none of that, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:03

Just so, Rob, I'll say this. I'm right outside of Birmingham, Central Alabama. And so we kind of have very similar weather. I have had a hen laying eggs and go broody and hatch in the pen in November and only lost one out of that whole clutch. The biggest key with the little ones, especially, is having a place for them to get out of the wind. That's the most important. And dry. Dry and away from the wind. If you can keep those two situations met, they'll be solid. And those will be some of the most resilient birds you have in the fall.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Sue Chris said he did it with a week difference in hatch date. He had a week old, a week a week of difference, and you know he was able to do it. He didn't know if maybe he had to call one of the small chicks and that she, you know, she was counting or not, but it it worked in his case as well. So even at a week's difference.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Yeah. Very specific to your hand, you know.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Some of them well, some of them won't.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Esther's with us tonight. Yep. Just to clarify, Esther, you really don't need to change your feed seasonally. I mean, yeah, especially with your chandelers, they're made for the winter. So you should be good. Yeah. As far as increasing protein in the summer, you have to watch your egg size. So if you're getting proper egg size, then you know, we're fine. And as long as you're watching your egg size and you're, you know, you're feeling for your body condition, I would not make a change. But you should be able to keep eating the same thing except for during the molt.

SPEAKER_04 47:04

So let's talk about when weight loss, and going back to how often are you weighing your birds, y'all? How weight loss becomes information to us. What do y'all think when you see a sudden versus a gradual loss in weight in your birds?

SPEAKER_00 47:31

If I see a sudden drop in body condition, body condition, right? I'm looking at, you know, do the feathers lay sleek and nice? Did she lose a lot of b weight in a in a hurry? I'm gonna be doing a fecal test to check for parasites, right? That's probably where I'm gonna go at first. I'm gonna pay close attention to the manure droppings of that bird to see if they look normal or discoloration, watery runny, whatever, and then go from there. But you should not see a rapid weight loss. You know, unless the bird's sick, whether it's parasites or other, you know, like if you if it got into some bad feed, you know, you can see body weight loss pretty rapidly, but then you're gonna see some diarrhea.

SPEAKER_03 48:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 48:27

It's it's a lot like humans. And you know we want to, you know, humans we don't pop eggs out and we don't stand outside and crow. So, yes, our bodies are made differently, but if a human suddenly loses a noticeable amount of weight, they need to go to the doctor. Well, if you need to check your chickens out, if they do too. Like and and you know, with any livestock or anything on the farm, you can look at their poop and learn a whole lot. You can learn if they're eating right, you can learn if they're eating what they should, if they're taking in enough water, and if they're sick. You you can even tell if they're stressed out by looking at their poop. And when you say, Well, how do I know what it should look like? Well, think about what yours does when you're stressed out, when you're not eating right. We did a hundred.

SPEAKER_04 49:32

You know, it's in that job.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

But it's similar, and like Rip said, we did an episode on that a while back, which is absolutely Jeff's favorite topic. And there is an extensive slideshow that's got a lot of pictures in it, and he goes into great detail. So, you know, find that episode and look at it if you have questions you know about something what may be wrong.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Learn to read the poop and don't reach for CORID until you've talked to a professional. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

I wish they'd quit selling that stuff at the farm stores. Yes. It it should require a drug license like everything else, but no, matter of time before they do.

unknown 50:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

I don't know. They'll keep getting away with it.

SPEAKER_03 50:21

I would say it should at least require common sense, but I think a prescription would be more easily attainable for some than common sense.

SPEAKER_04 50:36

One thing I want to, and we've talked about it numerous times on other shows, and we've talked about it already and mentioned it tonight, but I want I want to throw this out there just one more time. So if you're you joined us late, you'll get this information. Do not jump from observing your birds to diagnosis. It it's if you see something you think might be an issue, it doesn't mean go grab the cord, go grab the tile handle, whatever. It means that you need to do some more observation. You might want to ask your qu your question something like, what has changed? Anything? Change feeds, change lighting schedule. You know, when when did you notice a change? That can have an effect on it too. Yeah. So it's just running to go learning to run through these series of questions in your own mind before you get to the point of having to reach for medication.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Right.

SPEAKER_04 51:48

I I always, always, always view going for medication as my last step in the my progression.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

I can tell you that I never treat anything based on one symptom.

SPEAKER_04 52:03

No, okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

Absolutely never treat on one symptom. Okay. I need three or more. And I had, you know, I have friends in the industry, and I have this older veterinarian, and you know, one thing she pounded into my brain. We spent a lot of time doing presentations and working together, and she goes, You never self-diagnose. Okay. Because you're going to miss the symptoms and you're going to get them wrong, and you're going to, you know, then if you treat for the wrong thing, you can you can go, you know, the wrong direction in a hurry, right? You can cause a bigger problem than you had to begin with. Right.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Problem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Yeah, I I don't know. People don't, I guess people don't realize that, you know, we as a group are available if you're seeing something and you need somebody to talk it through before you reach for something stupid out of the medicine cabinet. Right. And I spend a large part of my day answering people's questions about their chickens. So there is help out there, right?

SPEAKER_03 53:19

That's actually Jeff's second favorite thing to do. Uh his first favorite thing is to actually be at a farm and step in and look at and smell.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

You learn how to be a you you learn how to get your doctorate in reading poop and a whole lot of stuff, you know, uh opens up to you.

SPEAKER_04 53:42

But all the time I thought his favorite thing to do was drink coffee. Gee, whiz, I'm I'm shattered here.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

No, no, come on, we're done by nine with coffee. What? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:55

As she drinks hers. That's right. Kind of keep my eye on the on the clock here. We're kind of ticking down to the tail end here. It's all right. One of the things that I remember hearing early on in my poultry journey was winter's coming. You need to put weight on your birds.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Good way to kill them.

SPEAKER_03 54:31

Yeah. That's a good way to make sure you don't have a lot of chicks come breeding season. Yeah. Because in the wintertime, they're not running around and playing in the run. They're they're ducking, they're avoiding the wind when it's cold. So if they're thick come October, they're gonna be thick come January, February, March. And it's gonna set the whole next next set of birds up. And you know, as a chicken tender, you should always be looking to improve your flock because again, they're like people, nobody's as perfect, and until you hit that, you should always be trying to improve it, and they'll gain the weight they need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:27

My mentors told me, go ahead, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

Well, so you know, Rip, you're a really good graphics guy. So make yourself a note tomorrow, get a hold of me. But I would love to make a timeline graphic for poultry body condition, basically telling you like this month, this month, right, throughout the whole 12-month period of where their body condition should be. And then if people can figure that out by feeling the pelvic bones or the pin bones, you know, it's gonna and they have to be honest, right? Just because it's your favorite hen, you can't you can't kind of close your eyes and say, Oh, she's okay.

SPEAKER_02 56:11

You can't play favorites.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 56:17

You know, for me, what I do with for me, I I'm always asking the question, why should I keep feeding you? Because, you know, I I like chicken just like all the raccoons and the coyotes and everything else. And you know, I I'm always trying to improve what I have. And if you can't tell me why I should keep you, then I shouldn't keep you. And I'll admit, that took me a while to get to that because I like all my chickens, they're pretty, and they listen when I go out there and talk about my day and all that good stuff. But Rip, you know, in in one of our sessions years ago when he gave it to me honest, it it really made me think, what am I doing? What are my goals? You know, he would always every time I I almost every question I asked about what I should do next. That was the only answer I knew, Gary. He would always go back to, well, what's your goal? Yep. And and you know, he might not know the answer, but he would ask me enough questions to where we figured it out together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

And a lot of people don't have goals, right? Honestly, there's a lot of people with 10 to 12 chickens in their backyard and they're pets, and they're they don't have goals other than to keep their chickens happy and healthy and you know, entertained and all that. So not everyone has goals, but they should. Now a breeder, you know, an exhibition breeder or a breeder, you know, who wants to keep a you know a strain going forward needs to have those goals, and they need to have standards that they live by. Yep. And you know, and that's what Rip was trying to teach you. And what you're trying to teach everybody tonight is when every time you look at a chicken, is why am I keeping you? What is your purpose for me, right? What what is your value to me? Yeah, and when they become pets, then you've crossed the line.

SPEAKER_03 58:37

I know because even as pets, if your goal is to keep them healthy and keep them alive, that that comes with the maintenance and taking care of them.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

I I don't disagree. You know, I got my dog on her diet, she's my pet. But she don't like it.

SPEAKER_03 59:02

She likes chicken too, though.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

What else you got, Rip? We're at our time.

SPEAKER_04 59:11

Uh nothing, I don't have anything really here other than just to encourage folks to start making it a habit to at least every other day, stopping for five minutes and watching your birds and see what they're doing, see how they're behaving, see how they're acting. Sooner or later, you may not see benefits from it today or tomorrow, but sooner or later you're gonna see something you're gonna think, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

Jeez, I'd give extra in the offering plate on Sunday if I could get people to do it once a week. Right? Yeah, I mean, it it's by pulling hens' teeth to get people to actually observe their chickens. And I'm gonna close it out with my funny story, right? I have one funny story. Lay it on. I started out with I adopted or rescued four buff warping tons from my ex-wife's aunt and uncle. And all they ever fed those birds was cracked corn. I'm not, I'm serious, just cracked corn from tractor supply. So anyway, when when they got tired of, they were notable for getting tired of pets and you know getting rid of them. They ended up at our house. So one day I had a bad day of fishing. I came back with a full bucket of minnows. I thought I had I had four dozen minnows in that bucket, right? I pulled up a camp chair and I sat there and one by one, I flipped those minnows over the fence where the Buffar Pingtons were, and I got so I got more entertainment with those minnows that way than I would have if I was fishing. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:59

Yep. Now, here's a low-fat, high protein, good, high-quality snack. Okay, yep. So, and if you have never watched, you know, chickens eat a minnow, you're missing out.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cheap entertainment. Cheap entertainment. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:18

For sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:19

Well, folks, we appreciate you joining us tonight. I've enjoyed tonight, and I hope our rest of our team has too. We'll be back in two weeks with another winter-themed show. So you'll have to stay tuned to see what we're going to talk about in two weeks. Thank you for joining us, and you know, don't forget, weigh your birds, observe your birds, and