Jessica Watson On Shamos-Part 2

0:00 Hi! Welcome to the Poultry Keepers Podcast. I'm Rip Stalvey, and together with Mandelyn Royal and John Gunterman, we're your co hosts for this show, and it's our mission to help you have a happy, healthy, and productive flock. Oh, this is just another example showing the females versus the males. It's very cool. I love working with Wheaton for this reason. And it's such a pretty color when it's right too. It is, and they all, they all get along in the brooder for a pretty I don't really know what's normal because this is my breed.

0:41 And you don't get a long time, you get a good time in the brooder because they're just so personable and they want to be interacting all the time. But after about eight, Weeks at two month mark, then you just don't know there will inevitably be a troublemaker this picture on the right. And it could be a male, it could be a female who's starting the trouble. You don't know. Sometimes the females will start it and then leave and just leave the boys to duke it out. So you do have to be really observant of behavior with this breed and decide where your line, where are you drawing the line? My line is I don't want a bloody brooder. I want to enjoy. The experience of raising chicks that I'm not constantly having to check or not know what I'm going to walk into.

1:27 So if I have a chick that's fighting that early, I don't even want to wait and see if they end up being the most perfect chick I hatched this year, because I don't want that in my line. They have to be enjoyable to raise. It's too stressful. Should we think about, have you played with any other types of enrichment? Something else they can peck at or beat up on, I have. I had good luck with that with the seals, and the chamois seem to ignore any type of parakeet toy or side toy. They're so into each other. I think that's an area I haven't exhausted yet, but they don't seem as easily distracted.

2:10 I'm actually just even wondering something as simple as some bailed alfalfa hay. Oh, I've not tried that. Just if they can tear apart and eat, right? The only issue with the parakeet toys is they tend to be hard and, they can't really damage them. It's futile, whereas if you put in a, like a cake of alfalfa hay and just let them tear it to shreds, right? So they can take out their aggression on something and watch it. Disappear. That's a great idea. Just an idea. Yeah, that's definitely something to try. Just something they can beat up on and they're not hurting anybody. Yeah. That gets us through the slide.

2:51 So now we can get down to some of the nitty gritty what ifs and why fors. But you've talked about it a little bit and obviously with a bird of this size, there's got to be some pretty unique management considerations. From the time they're hatched until the, until they're mature, but what about And what about hatching? Do you find them easier, harder, or about the same to hatch as other breeds? I don't think they're any more difficult to hatch than other breeds. And having hatched something like Ceramas, which are just like mind boggling and frustrating to a lot of people, they're just, it's pretty standard procedure.

3:33 I dry hatched my Shamows. I had great fertility and yeah, I had great luck with these birds with hatching so far. That's positive. But, then the brooder does pose some challenges. Especially, it depends on what size you want to have, what size flock of shammows you want to have. Because you can't combine age groups. Maybe you can, but you're taking a big risk. So having your, having a plan before you just go, these are really cool birds. I'll plan it out as I go. That's just not a good idea. Doesn't work well. And I saw you had those, that group of chicks were in a livestock watering tub.

4:16 Do you brood them like that from day one on up or? No, I actually, I have a larger, that was, I ran into this problem this year. I have a larger brooder and I had really high hopes that I was going to be able to integrate. Age groups. And it just didn't happen, but I had a backup plan, which was the one that was in the picture. But then I quickly had to make sure I had a grow out pen. Cause I hatched for a lot, for most people, hatching 22 birds is not going to be a very big number, but when it comes to shamos that you might have to separate every single one by, a couple months. You hope not, but that's a worst case scenario is playing for the worst case, then room becomes.

4:59 Slim pickings pretty quick. Yeah, I hadn't thought about that, but yeah, you could run out of space real quick. Yes, and I, some people have success keeping a bachelor flock of grow outs, but then, inevitably I see You know, there's death and I just prefer to avoid that altogether if possible. Sure. So Jessica, one of the tricks that other game breeds, game type fowl breeders are using is when they do the free range is they put a mature cock in there with them and no one challenges, right? He keeps everybody else under control.

5:40 So there's something about, he knows he's the dominant. And he doesn't, there's nobody really in there for him to challenge that's worthy. And yet all the uncockrolls. are not dumb enough to start a fight because he runs over and breaks it up. That sort of thing. So I don't know if you've tried that yet. With the free range birds, because I have a, my American game are my range flock and Yes our flock leader, his name is Hook and he does, he puts the kibosh. So I have four grow out stags that are free range right now. And then I have two grow out, no, three grow out stags that are penned separately, and I am just so happy with the progress of the free range birds compared to the penned birds.

6:30 I'd like to be able to replicate more of a free range environment. With a little bit more control because I can't feed these birds how they need to be fed when they're free ranging. They're fed like everybody else with the flock is fed. And then, so that there, that poses the problem, having the older bird with younger birds and feeding them appropriately. Oh, there's always problems. What about getting these birds ready for show? And I'm, I would imagine there's some special considerations going on there. What a scene that is, my dear husband, as I'm bringing him into the bathtub, because it's too cold around here in November to give these half naked birds a bath outside.

7:15 So yeah, my bathroom is a scene of ancient combat chickens and towels, and it's really something. Fortunately, they seem to be humbled by being wet, and they don't really fight it. But I think the hardest part is transporting them, and it's a, it's just a big bird. They got just keeping all of these parts clean, but then I look at these people traveling with white birds and think I probably have it easy. Yeah, you do. That's the reason I don't have whiteboards. That doesn't look fun at all. But the stags, they get disturbed. They do get very disturbed when they don't have a pullet with them.

7:55 I tried to do some cage training differently this year. And I tried for weeks and it was just unsuccessful. This bird was just getting worse and worse. And then as soon as I gave him a pullet, he just is totally subdued now and has no problem being confined. So far when I've traveled with my birds to shows, every stag travels in a large dog crate with one pullet and they stay. Very calm on the ride. Anytime I've tried to box one alone, they get a little bit frantic and frantic for seven hours before you get cooped. It's not really okay. I have a question here. This strikes me as a breed that would benefit from being posed right at a show.

8:39 Oh yeah. Do you work with. Training your birds to pose. Oh yeah. I work with treats. Yeah. You've talked about that before. So they're all, anytime they see me walk up to the thing, their heads are up there. One has learned to stick his head out of the drop pen. He has to turn it sideways, but now he sees me coming and he's even he's ready. So they have personality and character. Sounds like they're pretty easy to pose train though. Oh yeah. There's not a fearful bone in their body. Which is good and bad, sometimes. Sue asked about them flying well, and as far as flying goes, I, like I said, I keep my the platforms that they roost on up.

9:22 They're about 30 inches. And they hop up to those with no effort. Usually it's all legs but they will not go over a fence. Not yet. I, they would have to be really spooked and probably young and lightweight at that point. They won't go over. Interesting. Thank God. We've got a question back up here and we're getting to that part of the show. And Barbara asked, so you do single residents per bird, but you just said that you're doing like a pullet with a cockerel or a hen with a rooster with a cockerel, just to keep them calm, just so they're not alone. I have not had luck. That was my intention. And I think Katie has done it successfully.

10:03 And maybe it's just who I am, that I am not tolerant of a pacing bird that is not able to look at peace in the day. It bothers me. If all they can do is take a second to rapidly eat and then pace a fence, it just doesn't seem like the right way for them to live. Yeah. Yeah, their gameness. So if they see another bird and another nearby, they're gonna pace, whether it's a hen who's walking around outside, or whether it's a rooster three doors down. Yeah, and pretty much all the game breeds, I've watched, and that's just their behavior. And they're, They don't really calm down.

10:45 They're just high strung. On this note, Rip, I have a question for you, as a judge. I've done this. I don't know if I was supposed to do this, but I did it anyway. If you walk up and your coop cards are in such a way, but you're all in a row, because I have one breed, Can I decide where my birds go in that row, or do they have to stay the way the cards are laid out? They're laid out by, of course, breed, and then variety, and then sex. You'll have all the cock birds here. Maybe three or four, and then maybe two or three hens, and then maybe three or four cockerels, and five pullets.

11:27 They can go anywhere they want to in that, or anywhere you want to put them. In that small range. Yeah, you can't put like a hen in the middle of a cockbird group. Okay. That's something to think about for planning for future shows, because to keep one of these people, Birds calm, and again, they can uproot this coop from the table very easily. I put them by whoever their pen mate is, and then they're okay with that. But, if I choose to bring more birds, that's going to add more complications to my methods. Yeah. I want to see them uproot the pen and be loose on the floor.

12:09 I want to see that system. They can only be outdone by a guinea, loose on the floor, right? That's my favorite. Guinea on the loose. Just wave goodbye. Goodbye. Adios. Susan asked about your nutritional part of it and I don't have your feed memorized, Jessica. Do you want to talk about, our, the program that we've put together for bringing them up through? Yeah. I don't have everything memorized either, but I did fortunately write down a couple of key notes which was number one, that they need an animal protein, and you had suggested a fish meal or wild caught crab meal, something that mimics what their protein source would have been in the wild, and they're large birds, so vegetarian diet probably not going to be successful.

12:57 We had gone over a couple of myths a lot of people supplement with cat food or think that you need a higher calcium because they have a faster bone growth or some people think that you need to keep an extremely low protein for a chick so they grow slower and they don't grow too fast. None of these things I've learned have any scientific. basis whatsoever. We had a 23 percent starter for protein and a 21 percent grower with the lysine at 1. 25%, I think, and methionine at half a percent or above. Yeah, it should have been like 0. 52, 0. 53, I think.

13:38 I think it was 0. 55 percent is what you had my particular Grower at so you remember what the calcium level was I don't I think I did I think I did want your calcium at so any other random chick like you would buy a tractor supply I would be happy with 0. 85 calcium, but because of accelerated growth, particularly, like the shammo and other birds that grow very quickly and they have that growth spurt normally I'll try and be at 1. 2, 1. 3 calcium just to keep up with that growth. So that was one of the considerations that, I'm sure.

14:19 I would've factored in. So now I'm curious. I'll look at that in the morning when I get to the office. But now something else. But you haven't had any issues? No. So here's something that has come up. Maybe it's a myth, maybe it's not. But people have recommended giving your birds glucosamine. If they're not as active as they seem like they should be. I have one stag now who is just exceptionally large. For his age, and then that was recommended, because he lays down a lot. He moves around the yard all the time, but if he's gonna, graze, or do whatever he's doing it on the ground, and he's been like this for a couple of months now, and is How old is he?

15:02 He was hatched I think March 10th, something like that. I have seen Similar things with my Reds a lot of times they'll hit a certain point in their development and when they eat, they're Plop down on the ground and just hogging the feed trough. I refer to him as my little red feeder pigs at that stage. For me, it just looks like he's lazy cause his health seems perfectly fine in every way. And he will happily run if he sees me with the feed bin, you're not, okay. No discoloration, no swelling of the hock, right? That's okay. And when he sits on a normal sitting posture, not all the way back on his butt.

15:44 He's not asleep all the way back. No, what I mean is I don't, yeah, but if he's on his butt and his feet are actually coming forward out the front of his body. No, not like that at all. Okay, I just worried about viral arthritis. That's where, we want to be careful of them eating anything off the ground. Cause they can't pick that up and it'll, it's a bacteria that'll lodge in the hock joint and it slowly deteriorates the metatarsal tendon. So that's why I asked. How do they pick that up? So it's actually, the bacteria is in the soil. So you know, when people tell me they're feeding on the ground, I just cringe, right? And I want to cry. And so it's don't do this people, right?

16:24 It's people do it anyway. Yeah, spilled feed, eating off the ground especially if there's a higher moisture content, the bacteria is already living there and they just pick up a little bit of dirt that has the bacteria in it when they're trying to get that lost piece of grain that fell on the ground. And it doesn't take much exposure to it. Once it gets in the system, it just starts growing. And, but the body pushes it off and it, and I can send you a link to it, but it loads up in the hock joint, where it goes from feather to scales right there in that knee joint, so to speak. And eventually it makes him immobile. Then the only other attribute, but you're saying this is only one.

17:06 So watch, does he high step? When you see a bird that really exaggeratedly takes a step leg comes way up high, straightens it out, comes down, like a soldier marching, okay, is the best way to say it. And we, that would be more of a sign of gout, okay. Nope, and I know what you're talking about. He paddles. He does look very strange when he runs. He paddles like this when he runs, but he might just be very gangly and awkward. But I might also be undereducated. I'm just checking. I think how people tend to like to feed their birds on the ground. Yeah. Don't do that. Yeah, I know it drives me crazy, but when you get a chance to hold him you don't have to pick him up, but just gently feel or massage the hawk joint just to see if it feels more watery or gelatin like than other birds.

18:02 And see if it may be slightly larger. You can also check to see if it feels feverish or hot. That would be another sign. Sorry, I didn't mean to get Is glucosamine safe for birds? It is, glucosamine is safe for everything and people are thinking that it's going to help the joint. But, in your diets, because we've addressed the appropriate level of fat I'm not worried about it, and all the components are there for good cartilage, good joint lubrication, if somebody was feeding a deficient feed, They would see a response from the glucose of me, but Jessica soon had a comment about your question about shows and how the birds are placed. She said it might be worthwhile to check with the show staff and see if they would make a concession on placement.

18:48 I agree. As a former show secretary, I would probably be amenable to that. I just had to make sure, and you might have to do it as a follow up to know, to let the judge know what's going on and why it was done that way. It would be interesting to see how it was received, because change is not always received well. But, it's worth trying. If you don't know, you don't ever change anything if you don't ask. This is true. It's not, I'm not asking for a turkey cage, just asking a little different. Turkey cage would be nice though. Oh Laura Elwood wants to know, do you have any secrets to share about bathing your birds?

19:29 Oh, I'm fascinated to read other people's secrets to bathing their birds. Again, I have a hard feathered breed, so it's pretty straightforward. I don't have to worry about blowing out down and getting things to lay right and it's going to lay the way it lays. I just got to make sure they're fed properly so they shine and that they're housed properly so they're not all broken and frayed. And then, I use just a nice, high quality, natural feed. Shampoo, conditioner for dogs and it works for me. Matt Lamon wrote an article. I don't know if I have it or not, but it was a good article on showing and conditioning hard feathered breeds.

20:12 If I can find it, I'll send it to you. Yeah, please do. It's a unique poses its own unique problems. Okay, let's see, we don't have, I think that gets all of our. They're actually, they're quite enjoyable to prepare for a show because as long as you get them, if they're conditioned properly from the beginning, they're just going to wow people anyway, like you really can't mess it up at the bathing part. How could you not look at one of those shamos and not go, wow, that's a bird. Yes, and I more so learn along the way, that taking them from home and then the change in environment at the show and how other birds might be stressing them out or how they behave there.

20:56 That's where all of the problems happen and make them look different is are they confident? Will they stand up? Are they going to wreck their comb on the cage bars? It all happens in the final hour. Another question for you. I say ol Rip's decided he wants shamos. And ol Rip doesn't know doodly squat about shamos other than what he's read in the standard. But what are some good resources people could refer to out there? Maybe some books, websites, social media groups. This is a book that anybody even interested, whether you think you're going to get them or not. It's just a really cool book to learn about a totally different side of.

21:36 What's the title of that? It's called Oriental Gamefowl and it's Horse Shmud. Oh yeah. It's an excellent book. It's not a very easy book to find. It's not a very cheap book. But it's got a lot of great things. Wow, this is just not as easy as it seems like it should be. Got a lot of great photos in it. You'll see there's different sized shamos that aren't in our standard, but they are in the Japanese standard. They're small, medium, and large shamos, but it dives into More of the details, the coloring, all of this type of stuff and the history of Japanese poultry. It's a great book. I loved this one. There's also this is the unofficial, official shamo lady, Julia Keeling.

22:21 She She's passionate about the bird and she did a lot of research on the bird. This book was disappointing in regards to giving me information that would help me on my journey. However, it documents some really cool art and history about the shamo. If you want to nerd out in that way, this is a cool book, but it's not a lot about husbandry or anything like that. And it's also really expensive. So if you're dividing your money. Go with the Oriental Game Talk book. And then Livestock Conservancy, we're actually, they asked me to participate in a DNA study on inherently aggressive birds, so I drew some blood from my birds and sent it in for that, something interesting, and I'm going to help out with the census.

23:06 Oriental game community is it's hard to break into. There's a little bit of like secrecy and things for some reason. Is there a website for that? I know you have a Gamefowl website, but. Yep. I started that the gamefowlconservation. org website, just because I wanted to compile information. Facebook's not accessible to everyone. There's a million groups out there. You can't track them all. So I did that and I started a Facebook group. Under the same name, Gamefowl Conservation Network. And if you look up Oriental Gamefowl in groups on Facebook, you'll find a lot of groups. A lot of it is just people showing off their birds.

23:46 It's not a lot of learning. It's just not It's just not a, there's not a Poultry Keepers 360 for game foul. You ought to work on that now. Yeah, really. I saw somebody post today in the group that they had found like the Holy Grail or whatever they said. Yeah, I saw that. It is like that though. You're like, oh my gosh, it's a group that actually, is not judgmental, relies on factual information and, people have goals and purpose. And that's really, you want a community that has similar goals and purpose. Absolutely. And folks, her website and Facebook group are both excellent. Thank you. If you have any interest at all whatsoever, you need to go check them both out.

24:29 It's really good. I just highly recommend anybody interested in the breed, just talk to as many people as you can. Everyone's going to have different experiences with the breed. They keep them a little bit differently, so don't just go based off of what one person said. Try and talk to as many people as you can before you dive in. Shaggy wants to know if you do table training? Once again, the I'm picturing them on a table with me right now. I do not just because of how they are, everything I do, grooming, all of this stuff I do on the ground because I want to be able to stand up and be farther away from their face. Makes sense. Is there anything else you want to add about Shamows tonight?

25:11 As soon as we get off of this video, I will have half a dozen things. I thought I was the only one that did that. Now, come on. I asked you pre show. So if somebody listening or watches the show later, and let's say they reach out to you and they want a pair, Our trio, what should they expect to pay for a good quality, good breed, good breeding pair of chamois? It's not an inexpensive bird and you do have to be extremely cautious because there's a lot of mixed birds out there and you'll be forever trying to get your bird close to something you could. Go and, exhibit with, so I would say not to, if you can help it, going to shows, going somewhere like the National, where there might be enough of a pool of people you can see them in person that would be definitely preferred, and you could expect to pay upwards of 350 for a pair.

26:11 For sure. And you're also competing with a couple of different markets of people that might want these birds. So you're not only, it's not only ornamental show keepers. There's a lot of different types of folks that keep game balsam. Sure. So a trio would probably be in the$500 range. I'm assuming, if you got, I would, if you got a pair for three 50, probably a trio in the five to$600 range. Yeah. Which does seem extreme. But yeah, if you wanna start with really nice birds, I don't think that is extreme. You're saying that a lot of folks would have an apoplectic seizure over that price, but when you stop and think about it. The rarity of the breed, the quality of your birds, and just all the management and difficulties that goes into trying to raise those things.

27:02 I wouldn't want to think that I could go out and get that. Two dozen hatching eggs and raised birds for that amount. I'd have a fortune tied up in those birds. Yeah, yep, this is true. And there's a lot of, you got to really study the standard and know what are common shamo defects. Which is going to be a large comb. This is in both of these books as well. Oversized comb, duck feet slouching wings. You gotta know what you're looking for. And if you don't see a magnificent bird, then don't pay for a magnificent bird. If you just want a pet, then pay pet price. That's a good quote. I may have to use that. Yeah. What Susan wants to know what's her average lay rate.

27:44 So this is something I'm gonna do next year. I'm gonna commit to my different pens, my young up and coming layers, and then my older birds, and come up with this, because I don't think that this, the information out there is correct. I think right now, it's like, they say that shammels lay 90 eggs a year. They're some of my best layers. I always have eggs on a nearly daily basis from my trio pens to eggs, and I think that's fascinating, because Most people say they're horrible layers, but I have not, I do not have a number. I've not done that. I would have thought it would have been closer to that 90 egg range, but I think that's spectacular that you're going to do that, but we'll see what winter brings this year.

28:27 They start laying? They should have started in May, April, May, like everybody else, right? With longer days. You're already, May, June, July, you're already six months in. So that's 180 days. And everybody's molted already. All the shammo pens have molted. And you're still getting eggs, even though they're molted? Yes, yeah. Persistent little things, aren't they? They are, and double yokers all the time. It's got to, let's, it's Jeff's fault. It's the feed. They're magical shammos. We don't want double yokers, so maybe we're overfeeding the adults. Overfeeding. Yeah, I wonder if you, yeah, we may have to cut back. I don't know how much you're giving them, but we probably should have that discussion as well.

29:09 On the feed formulas that I've made for you, like the adult breeders, and again, I don't know, but you probably can do with about three or four ounces per bird. Don't overfeed them. But they're hungry. That would explain your double yokers. Even though their size, okay, but that would, if they're, once they're mature, if they're getting, too much protein. That's what you're going to end up with. That would explain it I'm happy for you, and they're great table legs. And I, they're, I'm sure they're table lake. I bet they taste really good. But hatching purposes, you don't really want those double yolks oh gosh. Yep. Something to pursue. Every time I listen to a podcast, every time I learn something new and I think, wow, gosh, there's more.

29:53 I need another spreadsheet. I need another touchy. We'll get, we'll hone it in though. Bless your heart. Jessica, I really appreciate you agreeing to come spend an hour with us tonight. This was great. It was not only a fun show, it was a very educational show. It was great. And I just loved it. We'll have to do this again sometime after you get your grant and all that and we can learn more stuff. Fingers crossed. I'll start the spreadsheets and then I'll have more details to share. Sounds good. Folks, thank you for joining us this evening. Be sure and join us in two weeks. Our very own Sue Dobson is going to be with us. And she's gonna bring her breeding partner or partner.

30:35 They work together on Crevecouers, and she's going to be talking about those big black, beautiful crested fowl, so that's in two weeks. So until next time, thank you for listening. You folks are awesome. Have a great day. Thank you for joining us this week. And before you go, make sure you subscribe to our podcast so you can receive new episodes right when they're released, and they're released every Tuesday. And if you're enjoying this podcast, we'd like to ask you to drop us an email at poultrykeeperspodcast at gmail. com and share your thoughts about the show. Thank you again for joining us for this episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast.

31:17 We'll see you next week.