Learn To Read Your Flock During Winter

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Good evening, everybody. Hope you're having a good day like we are. We got all four of us here tonight, so that's a good thing. We're prepared for you. I want to start off tonight by asking you a question. How many of you have ever walked into your chicken yard or your coop on a cold winter morning and immediately thought, my birds don't look quite right today? Maybe they're huddled together, maybe they're quieter than usual, maybe they just didn't want to get up and get out of the coop. But now here's a real question. Were they actually telling you something? Or were they simply acting like chickens on a cold morning? It's about helping you learn to read your birds. That's what we're here for tonight. And I I gotta confess I'm down here in Florida and we don't have much in the way of really cold weather. So I'm kind of at loss, and I'm gonna depend on my cohorts here to fill in some of the blanks that I don't know. But you know, we we had freezing weather this winter, this past winter, but we hadn't had any for three years prior to that, and it runs in about a three to four-year cycle here. So just remember, winter doesn't change the weather, it doesn't just change the weather, it changes how chickens communicate. Now, I know one of the things that I've noticed with my birds, even when it doesn't get really, really cold, is my birds are not as active. They were doing their best, I assume, to conserve energy. Jeff, what's some of the things that you've encountered?

SPEAKER_06 1:51

You know, I mean, my birds on a snowy, cold winter morning, uh the feathers tend to be up, kind of fluffed. You know, they don't like to come outside. You know, I if at the first snowfall, when the ground is white, they're like, what the heck is this stuff, right? You know, I just scattered some straw on the ground and let them walk out on it. Once they figure it out, they're okay, right? After the first snowfall of the year, it's but yeah, look, they're gonna act different because they're in new surroundings, right? It it's something new for them if it's a younger flock, not a bunch of older birds. You know, they haven't experienced it before. But yeah, I I mean the key factor for them is you know, making sure that that water isn't frozen when that you got a properly adjusted feed formula for that for that climate or time of year, right? And but they're yeah, they're they're like you said, they're lethargic, you know, they stay on the roost a little bit longer, you know, they're not, they're just not, but they're still healthy, right? They're their eyes are still clear, their breathing is fine, okay. They're just a little slower and maybe apprehensive, you know, on on those colder mornings.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

A lot like we are when we first walk outside.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Amen. Yeah, Sue, I'm curious, you you have some pretty wild weather out there in Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Indeed.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Have you noticed any changes in your bird's feeding patterns or behavior during winter as compared to spring and summer?

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, I mean uh once winter hits and it really starts getting cold, their feed consumption goes up. They uh and I mean I change it up a little bit, add a little more corn into their food to especially in the evening to help warm them up a little bit before they go to bed.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

What about and and this is something I noticed in mine. Did you notice any change in their roosting behavior?

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Well, they they weren't spread out, they all huddled together.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah, that's what I saw. That's exactly what I saw.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Keeping warm. And then like the way my coops are set up, they have solid walls on either side where the roost bar goes across. And so they'll get up against whatever side is against the wind, you know, where they don't get that cold moving around on them quite so much.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Carrie, and you're getting closer to where I am a little further south, but have you noticed? I I know you spend a good bit of time with your birds, have you noticed any social interaction changes between your birds? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Like it's a lot like it is right now. Right now they're hot and miserable, and they're not wanting to hang out in groups and party. You know, they're they're just kind of as high as they can get on a roof pole trying to relax and stay cool. And in the winter time, they will they'll huddle together, but like the playing and stuff like that, I don't really see a lot of that. My which for me that's a problem about three weeks out of the year, sometimes four, but that's usually a stretch. You know, we'll it'll get teens to twenties if Mother Nature does us a really good favor, low teens. That way we'll have less mosquitoes, but it's not very long. The but the biggest problem that I encounter usually is water, except for after a guy gave me a really ridiculous idea that is extremely effective and works really well.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Now, when you say water, is that drinking water? Yes, sir. Okay. Yep. You know, one thing I noticed with my birds is that when it was cold, they seemed to want to spend more time in the sun. Of course, in the summer, you know, they're pretty much critters of find a shade tree and get under it. Yeah. But during the winter, they seek out that sunlight.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah. I love it when they walk out in the yard and just flop over and throw that wing out, look like they're half dead.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

You know, sometimes that will uh almost make you panic.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

It has, yeah, it sure has. I have Rambo that walks around the yard, and when I left the house two days ago, which up until today was the hottest day we had had, he was in the front yard like a zombie. And I was like, I went over there and I picked him up, everything felt fine. Get got him some water, and you know, he started squirming and pointed down, and then he took off. But I was like, oh no, it's too hot for this old fella. But he's a survivor.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

One thing I want to throw out to our listeners is to when you're observing your birds, stop looking for problems, but start looking for patterns in their behavior. It's gonna take you a while of observation to find out what what's normal for your flock, and it's gonna be a little bit different from everybody. And a lot of that has to do with geographic location. You know, mine would probably think I had gone off and forsaken them if we were to get snow down here. But I I know where Sue and and Jeff live, you know, that's that's a fact of life that the birds have to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

I was gonna say that's another day between November, December, and February.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Once you figure out what is normal, then you can start to look for abnormal winter behavior. For example, I talked about my son, my birds liking to get into the sun. Well, if I ever saw them on a cold day getting into the shade, I'd be concerned and wonder what's going on. Jeff, one thing that I have found helpful in observing the flock and and teaching others to observe the flock is that it's important to read the flock before you start trying to read the individuals. Always. You pick on a bird doing something wrong and you think, oh, I got this problem and I got that problem. Nah, it may not. What are the other birds doing?

SPEAKER_06 9:50

Yeah, you're right. Uh you never treat for the outlier, so to speak, or the one or two. You you need to observe what the whole flock is doing. You know, you always have the one oddball that's going to be different, one or two oddballs. And it doesn't mean that there's a problem, right? It's just they're reacting differently to the conditions, you know, especially if it's new conditions that they haven't experienced before. They don't know what to do, right? You know, but people tend to be, you know, do that knee-jerk reaction, right? And they want to treat the whole flock because one bird, you know, did something different.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

And let's give them all cord.

SPEAKER_06 10:33

Yeah, yeah. Don't don't get me started.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

So too early in the morning for that.

SPEAKER_06 10:38

Yeah, yeah, too early in not enough coffee for that conversation. So I had to, yeah. Yeah, I it's just, you know, yeah, what is the majority doing, right? I mean, you always look for the outlier and try and identify why it's being different, but you never treat the entire flock for what the outlier is doing, right? If you feel like you got to do something, treat the outlier, not not treat the entire flock, right? Just different behavior does not mean there's something horrible coming to your entire flock. I I think that's the number one thing that you know I fight or deal with, you know, when people call or you know, reach out to me at Fort to they think they've got a problem coming and you know they just they overreact. And yeah, it you know, I don't know. It's just it's it's hard to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Jeff, and I want to ask you a question here. If you were to go out and observe your flock on a cold day, what's some of the things that you would look for to make sure they're all right, or to make sure there's or to find out if there's a problem?

SPEAKER_06 12:01

You know, birds can tolerate the cold really, really well, right? Working with friends like Kelly Gear up in Saskatchewan, and he's kept birds. You know, we're talking minus 20, minus 30. Okay. He doesn't change his feed formula, he doesn't change, he really doesn't change anything, nothing. As long as you are keeping the wind off of the birds, you know, so just like us, right? Uh on those cold days, they're just gonna be a little slower than they would be on a spring day. But actually, other than sitting in the sunlight, you know, or maybe being huddled together, their activity level in the dead of summer, you know, when you're 100 degrees, or the dead of winter at 10 degrees, they're gonna be very similar. They're they're they're gonna not be moving, they're not gonna show the same activity level that you'd like to see in April or you know, October, right? When they're moving around, they're really comfortable, that's their comfort zone. But it doesn't mean you have a problem, right? So, you know, my birds did did fine. You know, they just moved a little slower. Every step was more calculated, so to speak. They didn't waste as many steps, you know, just frolicking around, you know, to have a good time. You know, they got food, they got water, they you know, there's not as much to scratch in the winter, but you know, they do a little bit, unless you give them something to encourage that, which you don't have to, right? It's not that big a deal. I was just sitting here doing the calculations, you know, because in past episodes we've told people to do like Sue does, give a little corn, you know, to offset for the cold temperatures. You know, even in those minus temperatures where you would be looking at roughly an extra 100 calories, that's one pound of corn for every 15 or 16 chickens. Right. People don't realize how much energy is actually in that corn. And the best time to give that is going to be late in the day. I did see the one question, you know, they feed them a treat in the evening. That's the perfect time to do it, right? Right before they go to the roost when they're gonna have their least active period of the day. You know, if you want to offset the temperatures, but look, we're only looking at a half an ounce to not more than one ounce of that corn supplement per bird per day, right? Otherwise, you're gonna lead to that fatty liver, fatty chicken again, right? And you know, I hate to say it, but the number one thing I see killing, you know, flocks out there is you know, fatty liver disease, right? Birds are too overconditioned. I've I've seen a bunch of pictures posted not long ago. You know, you could take a half a pound of fat outside from the inside of a chicken, right? And that's not what they're supposed to be. That's not normal. Okay, that's not, we don't do that. Okay, it's just anyway.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

In regards to that, Jeff, you know, I told you that I'd backed off on the feed noticing that my older hands were overweight. Well, they've they've dropped a little bit of weight, n you know, and uh turning them out in the yard, they are doing way better than they did last summer. Last summer they had no interest in coming out of the coop at all. Um and now they they come out and they wander around and they scratch and they peck and they lay in the shade, uh, but they're way more active than they were last year. So that's good. I've noticed a big difference in that.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Good.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Stu, here's a question for you. You're out in your coops observing your birds. Which bird usually catches your attention first? Oh and why?

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Well, I mean, I'm partial to him, but you know, your namesake always catches my eye because you know, he's he takes very good care of his girls and he lets them eat before he eats, and so I'm more concerned with his health than the girls because he does that. And so he's he's the one that I pay the most attention to.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

A question for you, and you're talking about he waits to eat before the girls. Mm-hmm. Let's say you're out there one morning and he's eating at the same time or before the girls start, would that alert you to a to a potential problem?

SPEAKER_02 17:09

Yeah, it would. Either digestion or you know, maybe I mean he's he'll be what three three yeah four on those four. So, you know, another factor I might want to do a fecal float and check him for worms.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

That he's not absorbing his nutrients to where he's he's more hungry than the girls are, and so he's he's butting them out to get into the food. So he's obviously you know not not getting enough nutri nutrition for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

So Carrie, since you're in one of those borderline areas, did you ever notice a behavior in your birds that confused you or puzzled you until you figured out what they were telling you?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Yeah, it's happened a couple times. And it's usually when the weather makes a huge swing. And for me, like you were talking about earlier, observing my birds, until I observed them for a very long period. You know, at first I was like, What are they doing? What's going on? Why are they acting this way? They should be doing this from everything I've ever seen, you know, so on and so forth. But it's just my birds that you know, they they do certain things at certain times of the year in certain situations that are different. You know, because like sometimes I'll have I raise game foul and large fowl, and my game foul will be in like the my hand pin, they could be really active, moving around, you know, up and down from the roost, this, that, and the other, and my large fowl are sitting on the roost hoping the wind blows harder. Or they'll be sitting on the roof, and you're like, Where's his head at? Where what's what's going on? Head tucked up under the feather, you know, they're it's like they're already done for the day. Yeah, and you know, the others will be moving around, but that's usually the biggest difference.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

I if I you know, I I think I wouldn't have to say that game fowl can be some of the most active breeds around. Some of them are very active. And then then you got the legands and the anconas and all those squirrely jean birds, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Hey Rip, we got a couple of questions.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

The first one, this person says lethargic and not eating is a pretty good sign they aren't doing good. But could maybe you or somebody elaborate on what it could be a sign of or what to check?

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Well, like I said, I don't I've never encountered that down here in the sunny south. Jeff, what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_06 20:29

Yeah, it depends on the you know, I expect a little bit of slower activity in the colder climate, but I should not see a change in appetite. If anything, like Sue described, you know, you should see more aggressive eating, they should be hungrier, trying to get more calories, or you know, and adjusting. So the appetite should remain the same. You know, I mean, off-feed or not eating correctly is always a warning sign with a chicken. You know, so uh, but I would need more. You're not gonna make a change. I I can't make a recommendation just simply because of lethargic and not eating, right? So to me, lethargic not eating is kind of the precursor of you know, there's something larger going on with that individual bird. So depend, you know, what's the age, you know, if they're not eating well, is the feed fresh enough, is you know, or is it, you know, is it good feed, not moldy? There's there's a whole there's a whole long laundry list of questions I would have for that individual, right? You know, I I can't can't really make a recommendation just on lethargic and not eating good.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

But that would be a bird that you would definitely want to spend more time observing, possibly even put in a drop pen away from the rest of the flop.

SPEAKER_06 21:55

Yeah. Put it in its own separate pen or you know. Even if I put it in like a dog crate or or you know some sort of wire cage within the coop with everybody else, because I don't want to lose that socialization, you know, I don't want to separate them and then try and bring them back because that could lead to other problems as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

So that can turn ugly.

SPEAKER_06 22:18

Yeah. Um, you know, so sometimes having a a a separate cage, almost like a showcage, you know, in there or available to you, or like a wire dog crate that's all wire. So, you know, they're still there, they're still part of the flock. You just put them in a corner and you observe them, you know, to see what's going on. A lot of times when I see that, you know, lethargic and not eating, you know, again, that goes back to a lot of times I see that as, you know, it's an overweight chicken, and the heart's about ready to give up, and you know, the bird's about ready to kick the bucket, right? So, you know, but I don't want to say that. I don't want somebody to take what I just said and and think every bird that's lethargic and not eating is about to have a heart attack because it could be so many different things. Yeah, it could be you gotta have more symptoms, right? Gotta have more symptoms to go with that, right? Not not just that.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

All right now, Sue. I know you've seen this one. Pale waters on wattles on a rooster concerned really cold winter days.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

What are some things that you could do for that?

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Well, in the case of my birds, which are the big reds, I would pick that boy up and bring him into the either the house or into heated barn and get him warmed up. They're bad to get frostbite. That would be my first concern. My second concern would be possible, you know, heart failure, overweight, you know, something something's going on if his wattles are pale. Even on a cold day, they should be bright, bright red.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Yeah. Cause I like mine. Even in the wintertime when it's really cold here, which is nothing for you, but they don't really get pale.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Jeff, what's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_06 24:22

You know, pale laudals to me is often a sign of circular circulatory, you know, poor circulation. Um, whether it gets too dark or whether it gets too light. So just a lot of times I'll go at that with by putting a little bit of vinegar in the water just to see if it makes the change. It's a simple, you know, it kind of but yeah, I mean, you know, how cold are we talking about that you were seeing pale wattles? But you know, it's the birds telling you kind of what their circulatory system's doing and also what their body temperature is kind of doing. So it it would not be uncommon. And it can also be a sign of what the oxygen content is, right? So you know, it do I have do I even have enough air in my coop to you know it's it's gonna be oxygen content of the bloodstream and how well the bloodstream's flowing, right? So that's what I'm looking at, and you know, make corrections based on that.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

So now Esther has a couple good ones. She says that her chickens are missing winter right now. Mine where she's at, they they have really cold, brutal winters. But I mean, mine are missing it too. I'm missing it. Esther's up in New Hampshire, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. She also says that she hangs alfalfa hay in the winter time. I mean, it gives them something to do.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yeah. Nutrition. Well, kind of an enrichment type thing. I did that with uh heads of cabbage protein.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Because I really don't know that you could there's, I mean, where she's at, there's not pasture to let them out on unless you dig through the snow. Yeah. See good morning from Perth. And we got one right here for Jeff.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Good morning, Jeff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Yeah. Jeff, is there a lower thermal limit for chickens like there are with cows where you have to feed X amount more of calories? Cattle, where this person is, eat more than 10% more per day.

SPEAKER_06 26:44

There's yes. And I'm not sure. I thought I put it in the files part of either Poultry Keepers 360 or Poultry Breeder Nutrition, but it's like a heat, it's a temperature to calorie comparison chart. You know, so like at zero, like I was talking about earlier, the average, the average chicken eating about 320 kilocalories per day. When you start hitting that zero range, you know, we're up around four. It's an additional hundred kilocalories. You know, that's where I come up with that one ounce of corn, you know, additional corn to make that difference. So they do, you know, they're they're going to try to compensate for the temperature where they're going to increase their they're they're going to want to increase their calories. Now, in Chris's situation, if I was in the interior of Alaska, I would be keeping fat and trimmings off of the wildlife that I harvest, you know, because animal fat is probably the best calorie option for him in those extreme cold temperatures. Right. So, you know, if I shot my moose, I shot my caribou or whatever, right, I'd be keeping any excess fat for those animals during that time of the year.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Yeah, he said that after day three of negative 30 is the high, his ducks just totally stopped eating. And he had to bring them in the garage. And they saw 41 days of negative 20 and a half of them were below negative 40.

SPEAKER_06 28:33

You know, I would love to troubleshoot this more with Chris, but here's the thing is if they don't have access to water, if the water's not warm and easily to drink, if the water's frozen, the birds aren't going to eat. Okay. And I mean, it's a good way to throw them into a mold. You know, so water is more important than feed, and people lose sight of this all the time, right? Air's the most important, water's the second most important, feed comes third, right? So it's not so chickens waking up to frozen water is it is a complete no-no, right? That that's that's not even an option.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

So that's like Jeff waking up to no coffee.

SPEAKER_06 29:17

Exactly. That is that is don't do it. That is the perfect analogy, okay? So yeah, you know, when chicken comes off the roost or any poultry when they wake up in the morning, really the first thing they need is water. Okay, so you need to have systems in place for that to make sure that they have access to you know drinking water when they wake up in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

And you know, I'll tell you with that constant flow system that I made last year when I had to go out in the mornings to check on them, it cut that time down a whole lot because I did not have frozen water cups, frozen nipples, I didn't have none of that frozen to have to mess with, and it was really nice. That makes a big difference, doesn't it? Chris said that he did have warm water with them three times a day, a rubber two and a half gallon bucket.

SPEAKER_06 30:24

Yeah, yeah, you know, that that's great, Chris, and uh you know, I applaud that. But when they wake up in the morning, you know, it's gotta be there when the lights come on in the morning, right? Whether it's natural daylight or you know, it it has to be there before they before they wake up is probably gonna be the most critical and you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

And it's just like Jeff and his coffee. The the smell of coffee will wake you up if before the alarm well. Don't don't be picking on Jeff all the time now.

SPEAKER_06 31:01

That's okay. That's all right. You know, my coffee maker is set up to be that my coffee's ready before my feet ever hit the floor, and you know what? I can hear the little beeper, you know, that tells me when the coffee's ready from my bed. So it it's kind of the prelude to the morning.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

That's and those alarms fixing to go off.

SPEAKER_06 31:22

Yeah, yeah. I can hear the coffee maker alarm before I can hear my regular alarm, so it's it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

That's bad, but at least you're honest about it.

SPEAKER_06 31:33

So that's right. I'm not waiting for coffee in the morning, so that's not an option. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 31:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Jeff, here's a question. I'm gonna ask you only because I suspect you interact with more people on a regular basis, troubleshooting problems and this, that, and the other than we do. But what's one behavior that new poultry keepers may often misinterpret? Anything come to mind?

SPEAKER_06 32:06

Yeah, I mean, probably number one is the first time they see any runny poop that's a different color, any manure dropping that is runny or or not the same color as every other bird in the pen, you know, that's that's the cord conversation, right? People start freaking out that they got worms or they got this or that they got coccidiosis. And you know, and uh the more I'm learning, you know, Carrie and I are kind of uncovering this in a different in a different avenue, but learning that birds cycle about every 21 days, right? The normal cycle for poultry is 21 days. So, you know, on that 20 somewhere in that in that cycle, their body temperature will adjust, and you're going to see, you know, at least one or two droppings that are looser and a different color, right? And there's two glands in there, the sea glands, that are supposed to recycle, and you should see a sequel dump, you know, about once a month out of a chicken, right? So, or poultry bird, period, doesn't matter, duck chicken, whatever. So yeah, I I think the you know the over exaggerated concern of one, you know, uh of one manure, you know, dropping that looks unusual is is probably the number one thing that I that I talk to people about.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

So here's here's something that it can't be. Um Sue had to leave us. Oh, okay. She had the the storm that was brewing decided to brew her internet right off.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Oh no. As long as she's safe, that's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Yeah, she sent me a text message.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

One thing that I saw one time that really threw me for a loop until I was kind of kind of able to figure out what was going on. And it was a cold day in in mid-January, if I remember correctly. It was back when I was first getting started with reds, and I I probably had about a hundred birds at that point. And I went out there, and the vast majority of them were standing on one leg with the other one picked up and tucked up against themselves. And I thought, what in the world is going on here? And then I'd I'd sat there and I watched them for a little while, and the leg they had raised, they'd put back down and then raise the other one.

SPEAKER_06 35:00

Yeah, the alternate.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Yep, it kind of hit me, okay. Well, they're keeping one foot belief warm.

SPEAKER_06 35:06

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it depends on the environment, like if they're on bare dirt, bare soil, and if there's any moisture to it, you know, then they'll do that more, you know. If there's not ample amount of bedding, and people in colder climates need to keep a deeper bedding, okay? So for that insulation factor. Hi, Sue. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Hey, we're having a heck of a storm.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Well, I hope hope it doesn't get too too rank.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Yeah, a little bit of hail, but a lot of rain. A lot, a lot of rain.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Another thing that I noticed when it was cold here is that I was used to seeing all my birds just kind of spread out in the run, doing their own little thing, scratching, looking for bugs or whatever. But on this particular day, they were all ganged up on one side of the coop. And I thought, that's odd. And and then I realized they were on the left side of the coop. Well, the wind was coming from the right side of the coop. They just tried to get out of the wind. I mean, it's not like they were plotting and scheming against me or anything, but uh they might have wanted you to hurry up with that feed bucket. They never were very patient birds.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

I was gonna say if they're rolled on red, so that's exactly what they were doing.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Why laughing because she is so right.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, they're just little red piggies, yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yeah, I used to call my chicks my little red feeder pigs, and that was about the size of it. Quiet birds. Jeff, could that ever be a clue that something's going on?

SPEAKER_06 37:11

You know, in the hierarchy of a flock, you're always going to have two or three that are exceptionally rowdy, right? Bullies, so to speak, louder, and then you're always gonna have two to three, depending on the flock size. You're always gonna have those that are the timid birds. You know, and I always worry about the timid birds more than I do, you know, the over-aggressive type birds, in making sure that I have enough feeder space, water space, and they're not being challenged for what they need in their environment, right? A lot of times they're too timid actually to get to the feeder to get what they need. And that's why you you've heard me. I'm a big proponent of having enough feeder space for every bird to eat at the exact same time, right? It makes a huge difference, huge difference. And you should actually have 10% more feeder space than you actually need, okay? Because those timid birds just do not want to push in, right? Um you know, the bigger bigger. Yeah, and you can't, it's not like you can replace them in every flock. You're gonna have you're gonna have that 10% that are the bullies, you know, and you're gonna have the 10% that are, you know, extremely, you know, timid, right? And they're gonna stand offish. So setting up your environment so that the birds can make sure that they can get what they need is gonna be critical. Okay. But, you know, I don't get excited because I have a timid bird, you know, I just understand that, you know, you know, again, I flip my five-gallon bucket over or I have a chair at the coop and I sit there and I watch at feeding time, you know. So you feed, do what you gotta do, you know, um, at feeding, do your chores, but then if you sit there and you watch them for about 10 minutes, you'll soon understand a whole lot more about your birds. Yeah. Okay. Now look, if you're a manager who just wants to feed and run, then you're not the right person for the job, okay. No, you better let somebody else do it.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

And and Jeff, you're right. So many times, and I was talking with this about somebody with somebody about this a couple of days ago, that when you first go out there in the morning to let them out or whatever, their attention is solely on you, and they're not going to be behaving normally. It it you've got to wait about eight, ten minutes at least for them to settle back down and get into their routine, so to speak. At least that's been my experience.

SPEAKER_06 40:06

Yeah, you know, for for 30 years I've told people take your favorite beverage with you, right? You know, if you need a glass of tea, you want a cup of coffee, whatever, you know, just do your chores, do what you need to do, have a seat, enjoy your birds, right? And you know, do your observations. And if you can do this two to three times a week, you're gonna you're gonna get ahead of any real you know, issue that's coming, right? Because you're gonna see it way ahead of time.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

Uh, before we go any further, I want to take about oh, 40, 45 second break here. I got something I want to do, so let's do it. We would like to take a short break to express our appreciation to the Protrel Company for their sponsorship of the Poultry Keepers 360 Live programming. For Trail has been a trusted name in sustainable farming and poultry nutrition for decades, and their commitment to providing high-quality, natural products aligns perfectly with the values we hold there in our poultry community. Thank you, Protrel, for partnering with us to empower poultry keepers everywhere. We're truly grateful for your dedication and support. So, absolutely, yes, thank you, Petrell. And before we get back into talking, I want to remind everybody that with our new educational effort here, not only are we going to be talking about something like we are tonight, but we're going to give you the tools that you can take it and go another step with it. So, with that said, if you want a copy of our observation journal and uh observation before intervention sheet, they're in the file section of the Facebook group, Poultry Keepers 360 or Poultry Breeders Nutrition. They're absolutely free. And download a copy. I you know what I really hope. I really hope before the night's over, you'll go download a copy, especially the observation journal, and then to use it tomorrow morning. And let us know what you learn from it. I want I want to know if that's really helpful to you or not.

unknown 42:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Thank you. Hey Rip.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

What is your preferred email address? Well, I only got one.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

I thought poultry keepers had one. No, it never really worked out. I never got too much stuff there. It's my email address is stall th e y dot rip r-i-p at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Well, I don't want to volunteer you for anything, so y'all can message me otherwise, but we do have a decent amount of listeners that are not on Facebook. So if any of y'all would like, y'all could get in touch with me, and I can either email that to you directly or I'll stick it in the blog section on a website somewhere to where you can go download that because you know we we do have a pretty large amount of viewers that don't do social media.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

So we have a lot of that out there. A lot of members that don't join us on these chats either. So, but we'll get it to you one way or the other if you want it. And I've shuffled my papers around now until I've lost lost my place here.

unknown 44:06

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

No, no, no, no. It's not your fault, it's mine. This time. Yeah. Like I said when we started tonight, our goal is not to teach you winter behavior. Although we we've covered a fair amount of that, but our goal is to help you go out and walk into your chicken yard tomorrow morning and notice things that you would have walked right past in the on Thursday morning. You know what's what's new, what's different. And that's where that observation journal comes in so handy for that. And even if you don't have the observation journal, make notes. Get a note, make some notes because if you're like me, you may see it and you'll think, oh, I will remember that. Not so much.

SPEAKER_04 45:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

I was gonna say, I was like, observation journal. It's a nice idea, but then I thought, I don't even remember what I ate for lunch yesterday. I need to print me one of these out. There you go. You know, I I am I do like to make notes about different things that my birds do. And you know, it it's it's a thing because it's how you notice stuff ahead of time.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Well, Carrie, I think that's really important because over time, and it may not be a month, it may not be two months, it may take a year, but you'll begin to see trends of what your birds are doing, and you'll begin to understand a what is normal and b what is abnormal when you see it.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Well, like if you look at the bird over my shoulder and see, you know, those are not the best looking reds out there, but they do meet the definition of a red. Uh but you see the one that has the white feather. You know, if you didn't know what you knew about your birds from watching your birds, you saw a white feather, you would either say, Okay, I can feed him for a few more weeks, and he'll be great for the crock pot. Or yeah, I'm gonna get rid of him now and not feed him at all. But once you learn that about your birds, then it's you you kind of like want to mark that one and pay attention to his progress now, and that's how we learn these things.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

It's not how I learned that particular thing, but I've learned an awful lot just from watching my birds, paying attention to what they're doing, making notes, and then going back over those notes every now and again.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

There, yeah, yeah, you know, you you make the notes to what you see in your journal, and you know, like the reference she uses here a week ago, or you know, even a couple of days, when you're when you're making your notes in your journal, you'll see what notes you made before. And I mean, heck, if your birds really do have a problem, or if they're brewing a problem in their gut, then that'll help you notice the difference so you can notice it sooner. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

Kerry, do we have any more questions?

SPEAKER_01 47:48

I do not see any right now. No, sir. That was it.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Oh. A comment about the observation journal. And uh, she says, using the journal can help give you a reference. How were they a week ago? What changed? What happened? Yeah, and the more you do that, the more you can see trends, and the faster you can see trends. We're not born with the observation skill. No, we are something we have to work at to acquire.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

That's definitely definitely one thing that I've put into practice is you know, standing there and really watching what's what's going on in each country. Because uh like I've got a coupe of young st young boys, and a lot of banging and screeching going on, and you know, if you just stop in twice a day and don't stand there and watch, you don't know who the the culprit is. And he he got put in the compost pile, and then a week later it started again. Well, that one was a better looking bird. He's he he got put in a pen by himself, and things have calmed down now. They're getting along, and once I got, you know, stood there long enough to realize what really was going on, because some of the birds were not, like you said, Jeff, they they were not being able to get down there and eat. They were up on the roost all the time because the two bullies wouldn't let them down. So got rid of them and things have calmed down out there now.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Well, before we close, and we're getting close to time here, but we still got some time to discuss things. I just want to say we hope you don't remember every little point that we talked about tonight. What we hope is that something much better happens. We hope tomorrow morning you walk into your chicken yard, stand there for a few minutes, and notice one thing you hadn't ever noticed before about your bird. Yeah, and if you do that, then tonight has been a success for us.

SPEAKER_04 50:26

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

I don't have I thought I made a note here, but I guess I did not.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Here's a good idea. I label a bench in front of each pen so that I can observe and talk to my chickens.

SPEAKER_04 50:48

That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Yeah. That's what a five-gallon bucket's for.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Yeah, I'd go broke on building benches too many pens.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

And and here's a question to ask yourself. If you're out in your pen, and if Sue or Carrie or myself or Jeff, particularly Jeff, was standing there with us, or standing there with you, not all of us together, but if they stood beside you for five minutes, would you both notice the same thing? I hope not.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

Probably not.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

No, never do. Yep. But that doesn't mean you give up trying. Right.

SPEAKER_06 51:45

Yeah, not that I want to tell people to invite many visitors, but a fresh set of eyes on your flock, yeah, because you can become flock blind. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

In a heartbeat. Yeah, that's that's why I was like, no, we won't say the same thing. No.

SPEAKER_06 52:04

So, you know, if you've got a trusted friend in the poultry industry that occasionally can come over and you know, help you with observation, you know, that's a good thing, right? And because but they need to be brutally honest, okay. You know, uh, someone who's gonna pat you on the back and just tell you you're doing a great job, not so much, but it's you know, so yeah, it's uh you know, when I go to visit people's flocks, whether they're big, small, or otherwise, I warn them before we go. I said, look, don't take me out there if you don't want to hear what I'm gonna see. Okay. And I'm not gonna say anything, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings. My job is to help you, you know, see these things and fix them. And you know, people are sensitive, right? I mean, that's just the nature of the beast. So I I kind of kinda set the foundation before we ever go. And if they don't want to hear it, then look, we don't have to go look at your chickens, we'll stay here and have coffee.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

So yeah, it's uh it goes back to something I said earlier that you can have two people standing there watching a bird. One of them is just another poultry fancer, and one of them may be a judge or a longtime poultry fancy. And I guarantee you they're gonna see two things. The new poultry fancer may see and say, Well, that's a pretty bird. Probably is, but a judge or somebody else that's really experienced are gonna notice things like that bird should be in a pot of noodles. Tail angles, wind carriage, color, width of body, they're gonna pick up on the little things, and that just goes to illustrate that observation is something we have to learn and we have to practice to get good at it.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Well, and I mean I I I made my little comment, but in all seriousness, you know, when I first got back into chickens and first started looking for reds, I had the best ones I could find around here. Uh, you know, because I I wanted to be able to go see them and get them. And I went to a couple places, and even I didn't think those reds were reds, they were production birds. And when I showed you some that I had, and you were honest, that's what you said.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

I think it was three three grains of rice, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 55:03

And you know, I was like, I mean, this is brutal, but yeah, but this is the best I could find. And you know, you did tell me what what I needed to do to try to improve that, and you also helped me find some birds that led to me culling all of that and starting over because it was faster than trying to improve what I had.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

I think I told you it would take, I don't remember the number of years I told you, but it would take a while to get them when you wanted them.

SPEAKER_03 55:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

But anyhow, Jeff, you got anything else you want to share tonight?

SPEAKER_06 55:53

So, why yeah, I do. I mean, why would it not make sense for folks to get a copy of the standard for their breed? Right? Or get a copy of standards, period, right? To start if in looking through that is going to increase their observation skills. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Okay, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Um, that'll give them a great baseline of what they need to be looking for.

SPEAKER_06 56:22

Well, and that way somebody isn't standing there hurting their feelings, right? Somebody like me or Rip saying, you know, that those birds are junk. So you know, we don't want to it, and we wouldn't never say it that way, but you know, you know, I mean a copy of the standards could be a benefit to everyone, you know, like you were talking about tail angle, right? Uh leg position, whatever, you know, different you know, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

So I mean the standard the copy of the standard even lets you know what terms are used to refer to what on a bird, yeah, which is important when you're talking about breeding to a standard.

SPEAKER_06 57:08

And the few times that I've picked up the standard and started reading it, it's really good if you have insomnia. It put me to sleep in a hurry. So, but anyway.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

It will do Sue, do you have anything you want to she she ain't with us? Uh knockoff.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

See, I think what she would want is better weather right now.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

Yeah, I think so. Carrie, what about you? I'm good. Okay. Well, in closing, I will only say this. I would hope, sincerely, that you would download a copy of the observation journal and observation before intervention from our file section and our Facebook groups. All right, and if you can't do that, shoot me an email, shoot carry an email, we make sure you get a copy of it. But do that, and you know, if you can do it tonight, if you'll just go out with that tomorrow morning when you're doing your chicken chores, and just spend 15-20 minutes observing your birds. And let us know if you've noticed anything that you had never seen before, because I suspect you just might do that. So until oh two, I started to say next week, that's not right. Until two weeks from now. Y'all keep enjoying your birds, keep learning, keep studying, and we will see you in just two weeks. So thank you so much, everybody. Y'all have a good evening.