April 21, 2025
Selecting Dual Purpose Chickens: Hands-On Traits That Matter for Meat and Eggs (Part 1)
In this information-packed episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast, we dive deep into how to evaluate and select true dual-purpose poultry breeds for both meat and egg production. Join Rip, Jeff, Carey, and Mandelyn as they discuss hands-on selection techniques, key body traits, breed standards, carcass evaluation, and how to use real production data to make better breeding decisions.
Whether you’re breeding American Bresse, Rhode Island Reds, or other traditional dual-purpose breeds, this episode will help you understand what to look for in males and females at different ages, how to balance traits, and why the best breeders also process and eat their own birds.
Don’t miss this honest, experience-based conversation on making meaningful progress in your flock by focusing on structure, productivity, and purpose, not just appearance. This is Part 1 of a 2-part series. Be sure to catch Part 2 next week!
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Welcome to another episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast.
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In this episode Jeff, Carey, Rip and Mandelyn discuss selecting dual purpose breeds for production qualities.
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This episode is part one of a two part series previously recorded Poultry Keepers 360 Live stream.
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We have a lot of information to share so let's get started.
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We have a show that we get asked about a lot, and that's how do you select poultry for production qualities?
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And we've got somebody here who has probably done as much about that as any of us.
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And that's Mandelyn, Royal.
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It is good to see you here tonight.
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Nice to be here.
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All right.
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And of course there's Jeff and Carrie and myself here.
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But coming up in just a few seconds, we are gonna get started.
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All right.
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So mandolin, I know that you were just processing birds today and going through that whole selection process and all that.
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What do you look for when you're wanting to improve the meat qualities of your birds?
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It was about a week ago.
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We processed 23 cock rolls, and we do.
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Our own processing.
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So that gives me that view of what the living bird was like and then what that carcass was like after the fact.
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And I'll look at those birds and see what was the fleshing and what was I feeling when I handled that bird live?
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What was their structure telling me about their body capacity?
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What was their backend bone spacing like?
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Because that backend bone spacing is really important on males, just like it is on the females.
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I.
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And it affects their daughter's productivity for the egg portion.
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So I've spent a lot of time on the table traits, but there's a whole other piece that happens with the pellets after point of lay.
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And so you guys are probably aware of the 10% retention roll for breeding stock.
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And I get a lot of questions where people are like, what 10% am I keeping at 16 weeks?
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No, it takes a lot longer actually, if you're gonna do the dual purpose thing.
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You're not getting to that 10% until they're a year and a half, two years old.
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Yeah.
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And you have to take a staggered approach to it while also monitoring your feed efficiency and your space and your housing.
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So when those birds are getting to be 12 weeks, 14 weeks, 16 weeks, I blow through those cock rolls and look for who I definitely don't need.
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And then they give me my notes on carcass qualities and what my birds for more grow out need to feel like, to know that they're gonna be that same.
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Table yield, but in a breeding pen.
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Okay.
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I got a question for you.
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In your birds, which do you find it easier to select through the males or the females?
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Both are pretty straightforward, but I do struggle a little bit with being as harsh on the females as the males, and I just console myself that they can always make breakfast eggs and to not force'em into a breeding pen.
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You were talking earlier that.
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The pinbone spacing in the rear was just as critical for egg production as it is for meat production.
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Yeah.
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If you process your own birds and you, they're real tight on the back end and you have to cut up both sides to get the innards out because there's just not enough of an opening to get your hand inside.
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So that's pretty inconvenient from just the table side of it.
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But then what they're passing on to their female offspring for their rate of lay.
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So like on the males, when they're 12, 14 weeks old, I'm already expecting'em to have, it's not a very technical measurement tool.
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I've just used my hands, so at least two fingers wide in between the pin bones and then three fingers from the end of the keel up to where those pin bones are.
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And then it just improves with additional age from there.
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But that's like my minimum threshold for it.
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Do you use that same measurement and same expectations on males and females?
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Definitely for the males, the females, I would expect them to be just a little bit more.
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And then when they go into active lay in their into production, then usually you can add another finger onto that and then when they fall out of production, you can lose a finger.
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'cause the females have a flexing capability for when they're in or out of active lay.
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Take us through your process for evaluating your birds with step by step, blow by blow thing.
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So when I first pick'em up, I look for that heft.
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'cause you can tell right off if you pick up a skinny bird, it's gonna feel like nothing but fluff in your hands.
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So when I pick'em up, I'm just looking for that density.
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And then when I set'em on a scale to get their weight, I'm not going into that with a set weight in mind.
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Since I have been playing around with feed and I have been playing around with my methodology and figuring out what works, I don't have a rigid weight for them, but I compare'em against their peers.
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So I'll wear, I'll weigh every bird in that batch and then I let them stand on the scale.
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'cause they're pretty docile.
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Like I don't have to fight with'em.
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I don't have to put'em in a pillowcase and hang'em from a fish scale or anything.
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I just stand them there and they stand there and look back at me.
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And then I watch how they behave and I watch how they step off that scale, how they walk around, how their legs are tied into their body, where they're positioned at, how they're carrying themselves.
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Then after that, I'll grab'em back in my hands again and start really feeling on'em and checking out their skull shape all the way down to their back, checking the length, checking the depth, the width.
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But then I put'em back down and watch'em move around again.
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And my sort cage has three holes.
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So however I fill those three holes, it could be good, better, best it could be.
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Bert I've seen this season and then everyone else that was better.
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And it almost seems pretty consistent that I'll find.
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Let's say I've got 15 boys.
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I'll find two that check all the boxes.
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I'll find another five or six that are actually pretty okay, but they got beat out by the other two, and the other ones aren't in the same ballpark of quality that those other ones are.
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And that way I know how many dinner birds I have right off the bat.
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And I can go ahead and set them up for finishing.
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As soon as I know I don't need'em and they're of size, I'm usually looking for them to be a minimum of five pounds up to seven pounds for processing when they're between like 14 weeks, 16 weeks for texture's sake.
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The longer you wait, the tougher they get, then you have to adopt your cooking to suit the age of the bird.
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The younger they are, the more cooking options you have.
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How long have you been breeding American breasts?
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Now
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I'm getting ready to start season 8
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0 8.
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How do your birds stack up now to the, compared to the birds you started with?
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They're completely different flop.
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They don't look the same.
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They don't feel the same.
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They don't do anything the same.
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Other than having those boring old white feathers.
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White feathers is not boring.
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Jeez.
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Hey, I used to get into patterns.
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I used to nerd out on lacing and.
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That stuff got complicated.
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I much prefer to focus on eggs, meat, more birds.
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It's easier than tracking feathers.
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I believe you've got a PowerPoint.
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You want to,
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oh yeah.
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We can start looking at pictures.
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Pictures are worth a thousand words.
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So these are two point of lay pellets as an example, and that bird on the left, she looks nice and square and boxy in her frame.
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In between the legs there, you can see you could probably fit your fist through there.
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The bird on the right, longer legged, those legs are tighter together and this bird is not gonna have that underbody width that really presents well in a shrink bag.
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She has a different body capacity.
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She's probably not gonna be as productive of a layer as the bird on the left.
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So once they come of age like this and I start looking at'em and.
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Like that.
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I keep the bird on the left and the bird on the right.
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Nobody gets there.
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She goes with dumplings.
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That is the best use for a bird like that is to go ahead and pair her with dumplings.
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Right.
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From your angle, like what does that kind of structure tell you about either of those birds?
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When I see a bird that's wide like that has that open side to side measurement on the tail.
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That tells me that bird's probably got pretty good body capacity and sometimes you can get widths without the lengths, but usually if you got a nice wide body on a bird like that, they're gonna have really decent body lengths.
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Because if you don't have good body capacity, you really don't have a chicken.
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That's the bottom line, and it tells me a lot about the structure of a bird.
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And to some extent a little bit about the size because the size or weight of a bird should be coming from the bird's type.
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Do they have good type and the fleshing, not just the overall size of the bird.
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We can breed tall birds, big birds, overweight birds, but that's not the same as what we really want, at least to my way of thinking.
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When I see those narrow birds, I think of a bird that is lacking in body capacity, is probably not gonna be the best layer in the world that may have problems laying eggs because she is.
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So now that, that's a pretty narrow bird there on the right.
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Now, if you were looking at her from the top, she had top width.
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She just didn't get the bottom with.
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Yeah, so you have to look at it from all angles too, because they might trick you from one view.
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I'd like to see a bird.
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When you look at the body types comparing the two, and that's why I like to look at'em from the rear end.
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So I'm glad you got these two pictures here.
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But you can see that bird on the left that her width, body width carries down from her shoulders all the way to the bottom.
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But if you look at the bird on the right, more of a almost a wedge shape to that body.
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Yeah,
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which is what you don't want.
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I think everything I have for pictures after this is a carcass.
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So any more questions on the feathered birds?
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So before we move on, Thomas Jeffrey wanted to put this out and would like to see what the things are you're speaking of look like in practice.
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Does anybody have links to what this looks like or looks like in practice?
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Particularly evaluating them by handling them.
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So can you go into more rip and mandolin?
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Can you go into more detail when you're holding the bird a little bit more, what you're looking for?
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You talked about the heft, right?
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But, and a lot of people don't know how to measure the depth or the, the chest capacity or the body capacity of a bird.
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And there are measurements, right?
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RIP that you use like from the keel bone.
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Back to the vent.
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I think there's some kind of measurement there I hear people talk about,
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rather than a set measurement.
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I tend to refer back to the individual breed standards because it's gonna be different for every breed.
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Rhode Island reds are supposed to have a brick shaped body fairly long, not quite as wide as it is long, but where Mandolins bird, I equate them more to.
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The Plymouth Rock style body, they're a little bit shorter.
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They're blocky birds.
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As far as resource I, I would check out Mandolins YouTube channel, Arcadian Orchard, orchard, as well as her Facebook page because she does these sorts of things on a regular basis, and so I know she's got some videos talking about this, and she writes about it extensively.
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So that's probably the resource I would send them to on that.
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I realize the standard, and now we're talking, that kind of goes more into the show side of things.
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I, I felt like Thomas was like, when selecting this dual purpose breed, what we're doing tonight, what are we, what kind of capacities are we looking for?
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So even if it was me, it's like I, I know we're gonna go into carcasses.
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Here next.
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What is a wide back?
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'cause mandolin said the hen on the right in this picture or this pull on the right.
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In this picture to me looks like a leghorn, right?
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What I grew up, what I knew as a white leghorn, that's what the shape of a leghorn would be.
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And primarily only really good for egg production was a kid growing up.
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If you wanted the most eggs, you got white leghorns.
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But is there, I don't know, is there any tips or tricks or anything we can help him?
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I realize there's probably not any links out there that are valuable to help somebody evaluate.
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There's
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really not right?
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There's really not, I have not seen,
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I
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haven't ran into one either.
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There's a good book.
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It's outer print, but you can get, you can download A PDF copy on archive.org, A-R-C-H-I-V e.org, and the book is called Call of the Hen, and it will help you learn how to use your hands to evaluate birds.
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We've also got a video on our Poultry Keepers 360 YouTube channel that I did that talks about.
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How do you use your hands to do that?
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But getting back to the breed standard, to some extent it's about show, but to a bigger extent, birds were created for a particular person, a particular purpose, right?
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And the standard was written to help breed birds that would fulfill that purpose.
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And I know Don Schrider has said several times, if you breed a bird.
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To the written standard, then you have a bird that is capable of meeting the purpose for which it was developed.
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I remember some of the old Rhode Island reds that I have seen that were pretty good layers, and they had reasonably good amount of meat on the carcass, but they were also bred to that written standard.
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To me, when I read through the standard, it sounds like the blueprints to build a bird, and when you go.
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Feature by feature, like for the American breast proposed standard.
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'cause they're not in the A PA yet.
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They've got quite a bit of work ahead of them before they come anywhere near being in the book.
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But there's terms, like when it talks about the front, it says broad.
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Okay, what does broad mean?
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To me it's about finding the birds within the group you're looking at and comparing them to each other and finding those that go, that make you say, oh yeah.
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Okay.
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So that's broad.
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That's a broad bird.
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Okay.
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And then use that bird to compare the other birds to that one, and then do that trait by trait.
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And you start to almost form like a puzzle in your mind of what these birds should be.
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And then I always rely on peer against peer, which helps keep me in line because if I look at birds that I had three years ago and I'm basing it off of what they were, then I'm not gonna progress much further.
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If I look at commercial hybrids and try to aim for that too harshly, I'm gonna get away from.
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The standard, and I'm gonna end up in that dangerous territory of too much, too fast, which is a whole other topic.
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'cause you can over breed'em, you can totally get somewhere where you shouldn't be.
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And then you start seeing complications from that.
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Like the standard's there to keep you balanced.
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Yeah.
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Mm-hmm.
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And oh, you hit a key word there.
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Balanced.
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You want the bird to look balanced and width and height and depths of body and lengths of back.
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If you've got one that looks.
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One of those areas that looks out of balance with the rest of'em, then your bird's gonna be off.
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And Rob posted a question or a comment said it makes him wonder how many standards work against production qualities.
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Rob?
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In all honestly, the reason our standard Red Birds are not productive is they have not been selected for that within, since about 1940 or 1950.
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Up until that point, standard Bread birds were the commercial breeds.
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There were no hybrids at that point.
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So to me, if a bird is bred properly and you're selecting for production qualities, you're gonna have a good productive bird.
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But it's something that you have to select for.
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It's an ongoing process.
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It's a real battle.
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Production is something that is easy to lose and can be hard to get back once you've lost it.
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But Mandy, I think is a ca Prime example of.
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She didn't have it when she got her American breasts in her birds.
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But she's worked for a, a number of years and her birds, I've seen pictures, her birds look nothing now compared to what they look like when she started with them.
00:17:29.102 --> 00:17:34.832
It's amazing what you can do in three generations and even more incredible once you get to generation five.
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If you really put your head down and focus on what it is you want these birds to be doing and what you want'em to look like and.
00:17:44.297 --> 00:17:53.807
You do that with a ruthless sense of, I never go into a season thinking I'm gonna retain 100 pellets because I want 100 layers.
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I'm gonna filter and sort and select my way through all the way until they're a year old, and then I'm gonna see how many I have left that I actually feel like hatching from.
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And then I don't have a hundred birds anymore by the time I go through every little thing.
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From how they grew, what they handled, like what their flushing was like, what their growth rate was like.
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And then when did they come into Active Lay?
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Did they make weight when they came into Active Lay?
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What was the rate of Lay?
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How long did they stay in Active Lay?
00:18:23.281 --> 00:18:26.701
And then after all that, then I look at it and go, well, is it pretty
00:18:28.142 --> 00:18:28.231
well?
00:18:28.231 --> 00:18:29.551
And that's the way you should be doing it.
00:18:29.942 --> 00:18:31.231
That's the way you should be doing it.
00:18:31.892 --> 00:18:36.902
And the exhibition folks have given a lot of reads of black eye because that's not what they're doing.
00:18:36.902 --> 00:18:47.071
They're going for appearance first and with little to no consideration about production qualities and production qualities are one thing that is highly heritable.
00:18:47.852 --> 00:18:55.652
When you get it going and you're looking at things, and maybe we'll do a show on this here before too much longer, things like persistency.
00:18:56.551 --> 00:18:58.832
How many days in a row does a bird lay an egg?
00:18:59.731 --> 00:19:00.152
Pause.
00:19:00.152 --> 00:19:00.211
Yeah.
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