What’s Really in Your Chicken Feed? Protein, Fat & Fiber Explained - Video Edition

SPEAKER_00 0:23

And we're all here tonight. I'm here. Carrie's here. Jeff's here from the other side of the world. So glad he could join us tonight. We've been missing him. But tonight we thought we would talk about the major feed ingredients. Talk about proteins, talk about fibers, and we talk about fats. But we're going to get a bit of a deep dive. And as always, if y'all have a question, don't hesitate to ask us because we'll do our very, very best to uh answer those for you. So the sources are protein and poultry diets. You know, you've basically got two sources: vegetable-based proteins and animal-based proteins. Jeff, I'm guessing that the most popular vegetable-based protein is soybean.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Unfortunately, the number one, the king of protein across the U.S. and actually most of the world, is solvent-extracted soybean meal, where they use a chemical degreaser called hexane to loosen and dislodge the flat the fats from the soybean flush, and then they drive it off with forced air, and they capture the fat. They tell you that they separate the hexane because they want to reuse it, it's expensive. I don't know that can you ever get 100% out? I don't know. That's I'm a speculative there.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

That hexane kind of scares me off a little bit. That can be some pretty bad stuff. Yep. And I'm suspecting, since soybeans are in there, that the other bees and peans, bees and peas, like legumes would be good. Right. Canola meal, I know they use that out west, don't they?

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Oh, they're using that in your neck of the woods, even. So there's a big canola meal processor, you know, in in north northwest Arc or Northwest Georgia. But there's several, there's canola is now being grown quite widely throughout the southwest or through the south, southern states. It's a little more drought tolerant, and it has a high oil yield. So when the oil market is high, the the value of canola is higher, but it's easier to grow and it's a good rotation for you know in place of soybeans. It's just so you you see a lot of canola meal being used more and more, it's growing.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Gotcha. I was not aware we had a processing plant in the south now. That's that's good to know. And we would be remiss if we got to talking about proteins and we didn't bring up amino acids, one of our favorite subjects. Mine anyway. Mine, mine for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, but amino acids in vegetable proteins. Can we get all the amino acids we need strictly from using vegetable proteins?

SPEAKER_02 3:41

It's not that we can't, but the ratios are not right. Okay, so vegetable proteins tend to be higher in lysine, but they're very short in methionine. Um, there's only a couple of vegetable protein sources that have you know significant amounts of methionine, and one of them being sesame meal, which is hard to find, right? But sesame meal is really high in methionine. Um, so it is an option. The other one is camelina meal, and you know, that's part of the mustard family. Again, limited supply, pretty much in the northwest. You really don't see it in the south or the east. So, but yeah, for the most part, you know, when you're looking at peas, soybeans, other dry edible beans, their ratio of lysine to methionine is about four to one. And in a poultry diet, we're looking for about a two to one or a two and a half to one lysine to methionine ratio.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

So I'm assuming then that animal-based proteins have a much better level of those amino acids that are missing in some of the vegetable-based protein. They do.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Especially if it's considered a wild animal that's been able to go out and forage and feed on its own. You know, that's why I eat a little heavier on the fish meals versus so we're finding that you know, like commercial meat and bone meal, poultry meal, feather meals, things like that. Animals that are being fed corn and soy, those amino acids are not as enriched as in like a wild cutfish meal. So even uh I saw this first one with the catfish, which is farmed you know, widely throughout the south southern states. And the amino acid profile on catfish meal, when they take the fillets off and they process it, everything else that's left, you know, those amino acid profiles are not really that great because the catfish is eating a corn and soy-based diet.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

So isn't there some other aspects of uh catfish meal now that you brought that up? It's been a while since we've talked about catfish meal, and it seems like I recall you saying something, but I honestly can't remember what it was. Something about perhaps in the way it was processed or something.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Well, that's uh yeah, I mean it doesn't have the greatest, you know, clean process whatsoever, but I avoid it because you know, antibiotics and other chemical treatments are frequently given to the catfish, right? So people don't realize that those catfish fillets that they may buy or eat at you know, cracker barrel or wherever they like, those catfish are probably getting fed as much antibiotics as chickens, right? Just to keep them healthy, right? They have an ongoing regiment to maintain where they're feeding antibiotics to them on a pretty much regular basis.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

That's that when you said that that jogged my memory, and that's what I recall.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

So that's the only reason I avoid it. It's you know, I mean, everybody has their own personal preferences and what is okay and what is not okay. So you you know, everybody needs to make that decision for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

But you know, and and there's a lot of people using catfish meal, and you know, is it better than pork meal or you know, for sure, I don't really want to feed same species back, you know, so I don't feed any poultry or feather back to you know chickens. That's just my personal preference again, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

So I mean that seems a little weird to feed chicken back to chicken. Uh it's I agree with it. I mean it is, but it just seems weird to me.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

So you know in the commercial world, what they look at, okay, so most of the protein prices are set based on the price of soybean meal. So if soybean meal goes up, then all other proteins may go up as well. But in a short period of time, in a 30-day window, they may not adjust quickly. So, you know, your large, like Pilgrim's Pride, Tyson, you know, all of those larger integrators, they'll go buy and shop, they'll go shop and buy based on the price per pound of protein. Okay. And so that's why. So sometimes you know, you'll see those products are being added into their diets, usually not, but just depends on what the market price is. So they're always shot, they got buyers that do nothing but shop and book prices and lock them in, trying to maximize the profit of those corporations.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Let's talk about fish meal for a minute. And sometimes when I mention to people about adding fish meal to their poultry diets, they bring up the point, well, that's not a sustainably harvested product. And I know some of it is not, but I think there's some. And the supplier you use, I mean, you showed us the video, they do practice sustainable harvesting.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

They do. They realize that it's a natural resource that you know their their life independent, you know, they're they're dependent on, right? And they have been for multiple generations. So, you know, they're out there, they're checking the cats, they're measuring the amount of juveniles, they're you know, they have spotter planes in in the air all the time, uh counting the number of pods, but so far there's no regulation or there's no controls how much Menhaden is caught out of the Gulf or along the eastern seaboard, right? So if it's good weather and the fish are easy to find, you know, your Daybrooks, Daybrook Industries, Omega proteins, etc., they'll go harvest as much as they can harvest, right? They they're not really, you know, they're not setting a limit. And so there is not really sustainability there. Or there's no oversight. There's no oversight and control on the harvest. There's nobody really measuring, you know, okay, what is the total population out there, right? How much should we limit the harvest to, and nothing like that. Whereas, like the sardine industry in the Pacific, you know, off the coast of Peru, you know, South America, through the Latin American countries and into Mexico, they work together collecting the science and the data, and Peru will actually set a harvest limit, right? They'll say, okay, based on our scientific research, we will not harvest more than like you know, a thousand metric tons. I'm just throwing out a number, right? And and this small group of fisheries in the Sea of Cortez that I'm working with, you know, the fish companies there all work together. Like all of their owners get together, they discuss it, they sit down with the Mexican government officials, right? And you know, they so they have a sustainability, you know, a sustainable harvest certificate that they go through and the way that they do it. And if they're not catching adults, you know, then they'll move or they won't keep fishing juveniles, right? Because they know all they're doing is cutting off their future harvest. Okay, so uh all fishing is not the same everywhere. True.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Very true. Yeah, you know, and and talking about fish meal, I can tell a difference between birds that have my birds, especially if there's fish meal in their diet or if there's not. I see it primarily in the feathers. The feather quality is much better if they're on fish meal. I think it has a little bit more shine to it. That may just be my imagination. I don't know. And I think I can detect a difference in the taste of the eggs, not not negatively. It just a little bit too much fish meal and that can ruin everything, but it it just has a richer, more full-bodied flavor to it.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yeah, and if you're still getting feed from Caleb, then you know, also the other ingredients that are in there. Again, there's no byproducts, right? So you're getting a complete feed. And then if you add a little bit of fish meal to that, now for layers, you don't want to go over about three, three percent of the diet total, right? Including what may already be in the feed. Then you're gonna start to taste or smell a little bit of that fish when you're cooking those eggs or eating those eggs, but uh, three percent most people cannot detect it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Um incidentally, I'm I'm not getting feed from Caleb anymore. I'm getting it from uh our compadre down there, Mr. Blackman. Uh better yet. Absolutely, like doing business with friends.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Yeah. But yeah, that's what you're seeing. And and the the natural fats in the fish meal also are going to help with that shine, like you were talking about. They're more of a high omega-3 type fish meal, you know. So the bird overall is going to be a little bit more healthy than using all seed oil, seed oils. So they're able to process it, you know. And we we're gonna talk about fats later, but right now we're talking about proteins. Um, but it's hard to beat a good meat type protein. Uh I hope Mike's on tonight. I wish he'd chime in. Mike Glotzer from Alaska, and now he's feeding you know, roadkill moose and uh fishy bear and and salmon eggs.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

So every time I see him post, it just literally amazes me of the things he has to go through and the adaptations he has to make to be able to raise poultry efficiently and effectively up there in Alaska.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

But look, if you if you talk to him about it, the man has got it to a science. Oh, he does. Like he's done an astronomical amount of research, but the the way he's got it down pat, he's got it to a science. It's more economical and it's better at the same time. You know, you would think everything in Alaska is ridiculous, but he's made it work.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

I give him a lot of credit for that because, like you said, he is a research a holic. And we're constantly messaging back and forth, bouncing ideas off of each other, but he just he really impresses me.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Well, he was willing to go the extra mile to find these resources. Right, you know, when he reached out to me and said, you know, I I can't bring in roasted soybeans, like, you know, these this is not cost effective for me, right? He goes, I've got to find a way to feed my birds more with more local inputs. I you know, I said, Well, what do you have easy access to, you know, on the protein side? And we started talking, right? And he gave me a good list, and I started looking up the nutrient values and figured putting it all together on a piece of paper, and there we go. So uh he seems like he's pretty happy with what's going on up there.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

I think so. I think so. Let's talk about uh amino acids and which one impacts a particular thing about poultry. For example, lysine is going to be really critical for muscle growth and maintenance, and that also has some impact on feather development and the overall body condition. Whereas uh methionine my paper's all stuck together here. Methionine seems to have more of an impact on feather production and that's if you're showing birds, okay, I can't uh say enough pay attention to the lysine, methionine, and if you can find out what it is, the cysteine level as well, too, because cysteine is a an amino acid that really boosts the feather quality. That's cysteine is one of the major components in keratin, and that's what makes up chicken feathers. So those are really, really important. And if you're not sure, drop me a message or something and we can address that for you and give you a little help there.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah, there's still uh there's no good hard data on what the right level of cysteine is. Somehow inside the chicken, they can convert methionine to be like cysteine. However, if you you know, and that's why we went with the cysteine in the show pro with Gary, is when you can supplement the cysteine beside the methionine, they work much more efficiently. Everything that I've seen, cysteine should be 50 to 65 percent of what the methionine level is, right? So, you know, if we're shooting for that 0.5 methionine, you know, I need at least a 0.3, you know, right around that 0.3, 0.35 cysteine. But it's hard to calculate for. I mean, even my nutritional program that I do formulas on, you know, is old enough that it's not valuing, it's not reporting uh a cysteine value. So I'm not sure how I get that upgraded or what I where do I go from here, but it's gonna be up and coming, and it's gonna be important, especially for show poultry, right? For where you want the the absolute best feather formation and quality, cysteine is gonna be the ticket. So I mean the others are important as well, but the cysteine is like it it is the magic key.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

It's the icing on the cake, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Health for the sheen, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Let's talk about age-specific protein requirements. Let's start off with baby chicks from the time they hatch till they're what, maybe six weeks old.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Again, it depends on those amino acid levels, but you know, you're you're anywhere from 20 to 22 percent. So when I see people posting they're feeding 24 or like a game bird starter, I get really nervous. That's a little bit of overkill. You can overfeed protein, and people just don't can be dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

Yeah. You know, there was some post not long ago about gout, and too much protein or too much calcium can lead to gout, right? And it's hard to fix gout. Once once you get that uric acid buildup, it's hard to get it. It's hard to get the bird back to normal. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

It also affects negatively affects the hatchability of that bird's offspring. I've seen it to where a hen had that, and you know, she was she they were still breeding and all that good stuff. But when you would hatch when you would hatch a chick out, that chick would only survive for about a week. And it it was because of the you know, that that had that that chick, the chicken, the hen, had that gout, and it wasn't good.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

And I have seen more comments about people dealing with gout, I think, in the past 12 months than I ever recall seeing before. And I don't know if this is because there's this mantra, particularly in the Bannum community, is that birds need a lot of protein, need a lot of protein, and that's not really the case. They need a well-balanced diet, but it doesn't have to be just gotta be rich in protein.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Well, I think for me, at one point before I I really started learning a whole lot about nutrition, I would start chicks out, like chicken chicks, on a quail starter because I knew like I knew the amino acid levels, what they should be. And if you look at most of your store-ball feed, the amino acids on a a game bird starter feed is about what they really should be for a chicken. You know, that and that is part of the reason why it cost a little more and all that. But so what I was doing is I would feed them the game bird starter for two, two and a half weeks, but then I would pull them off because I knew that was way too much protein and you know, gout, it it burns their kidneys up, all that good stuff for long term, you know, prolonged usage. But I was doing it in the beginning to get them the amino acids that they needed. And now that I've learned A whole lot more about nutrition, mainly because of this show. You know, I I know that there's ways to get the methionine, lysine, vitamin A, D, and B. You know, you can get all of that stuff without buying the more expensive game bird feeder feed for your bird. It's it's a lot better for them. But I I really think that's the reason why a lot of people do, because they don't know ways to supplement the feed, a Kickstarter that's in that 18 to 22 percent range to get the amino acids and the vitamin levels without doing game bird or something else.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Well, I mean, you when you stop and think about it, Carrie, there's really not much information available to folks about doing that.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

No. Well, the one that's making me nervous is the people that are buying that 24 or that 28% protein. Oh, yes, then still putting the breeder supplement or the show pro or something like that with it. Because now you're really kicking it up a notch. And I mean, you you're lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite. You just don't want to do that, right? Yeah, it looks good for a little while, but you know, too much of a good thing is not good.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

So you know, I I had somebody message me earlier today wanting me to recalculate some numbers because they were feeding one particular type of feed that was not good, but that was all they could get. And they were using uh breeder supplement and additional feet fish meal. And now that they're they're getting a better feed, like, do I need to change it? And I said, yes, definitely you need to change it. Let's let us run some numbers and and see what you may need to change it to. But you know, I really I don't think they're gonna need the fish mill and the breeder supplement anymore because they're they they are buying a better quality feed.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Yeah, don't yeah, don't do that. I mean, you can overdo it, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Not only is it bad for the birds, it's bad for your pocketbook in the long run, too. Yeah. What about uh grower chicks, Jeff? Six to eighteen weeks old.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Well, you know, here in the north I'm good at an 18%, you know, because they're gonna eat a little bit more due to temperature. In the south, I would run probably a 19, 19, or a 20, especially in the hot weather, because their their dietary intake, their the amount of feed they eat every day is going to be reduced, right? So again, I'm not looking at the percentage, I'm looking at how many grams of protein the bird actually consumes in a day. We only can shop for it based on you know percent of protein. All right. Um so you know, i it in a hotter climate, you know, I'm gonna want to run a little bit higher protein, only you know, because of reduced intake. You know, so like for you down there, Rip, I think a 19, a 19 is probably ideal. And then up here, you know, I can get by with a 17 and a half or an 18 in the north.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

So what about layers? And I'm I'm assuming as we're going along, the protein requirements are starting to drop a little bit, and I'm assuming that's the same thing for layers, correct?

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Well, even before you get to layer, so if you're gonna do layers, so to speak, then we want to go to a developer feed, which is gonna be around 16 and a half, 17% protein, right? And so you're doing like six weeks on each stage. Because when you go to layer, you want that you want to see an increase in protein at the onset of late, because now her demand for for protein is higher because she is producing an egg. Okay, so you know, you so you go starter, grower, developer, right? And then and and it's this isn't just for laying chicks, this is for everyone, but you don't have you don't have developer options out there, right? So that's the downside.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

But you I don't know when when I've seen a developer in the feed store here.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

You you have it, and you won't, right? It's just one, the customer doesn't know they need it, two, the feed store is not gonna sell enough of it to keep it on the shelf, right? So you're just not gonna see a developer, right? But a developer is actually important, you know, to finish that growth cycle, let things finish out in that in that hen or that cockerel, you know, at a little bit slower pace without overfeeding the protein. They don't need that much protein at that stage, right? And then as soon as you see that first egg, we want to jump back up into that again up here where they're gonna consume a little more. We're gonna want about a 17 or an 18, and then down, you know, down in the south, we would run a 19, 19, or a 20 layer, just depending on how much they're eating every day. So I'm assuming a hen's gonna eat four ounces, you know, above the Mason Dixon line, right? Below the Mason Dixon line, probably two and a half to three ounces if it's good feed, is all she should need. Right now, if it's full of byproducts and and other stuff, she'll eat more trying to compensate and get her energy needs. So uh Noah asked, what about birds like buckeyes that require higher protein? Noah, I don't want to step on your toes, but a buckeye doesn't require any higher protein than any other breed. Okay, so if it's well-balanced feed, properly put together, they're gonna be starting on a 22, dropping down to a 19, you know, same regimen we just talked about, if the amino acids are correct and the feed isn't loaded up with a bunch of byproducts. So people are just kind of drunk on protein and way over feeding it in the show world. And it's it's not the protein that makes the difference, it is the amino acids, okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

What about breeding stock? Any difference there in protein requirements or needs, I should say?

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Uh so once you the breeding stock that you want to collect eggs from and hatch is we want to have a bump-up in vitamins across the board, A, for sure A and E, and we've got to get the the B vitamins up, you know, the riboflavins, the thiamine, the niacin, that's all gonna transfer into that egg to give you better chick vigor, increased hatch ability, you know. So I'm looking at increasing those, and I would come up a little bit on the amino acids or protein, you know, just just during that breeding cycle. And that's where adding that little bit of fish meal is going to be huge as far as getting those birds to you know to maximize the birds you know, true living potential.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Okay, why don't we switch gears? But before excuse me, before we do, I've got a little something here I'd like to share with y'all. Uh a short video. We would like to take a short break to express our appreciation to the Petrell Company for their sponsorship of the Poultry Keepers 360 Live programming. For Trail has been a trusted name in sustainable farming and poultry nutrition for decades, and their commitment to providing high-quality, natural products align perfectly with the values we hold dear in our poultry community. Thank you, Petrell, for partnering with us to empower poultry keepers everywhere. We're truly grateful for your dedication and support. And to that, I can only say a very strong amen. Thank you for trell.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

It was a great video, Rip. Thank you for making that.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Not a problem. Not a problem.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Yeah, I really like that video. The only thing that could have made it any better was if it was some Rhode Island Red Chicks. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

I mean, I I'm a little partial, okay? I get it. You're terrible. I didn't have a video of Rhode Island Red Chicks. I understand. We'll have to work on that. We'll have to work on that. You shoot the video, I'll swap it out. Let's switch gears and get into fiber. Fiber in a bird's diet.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

You know, here in the U.S., we are 98% of the time, we are way too low in fiber. Okay. So uh dietary fiber, particularly your harder fibers, and I I like, you know, look, I tell everybody oats, alfalfa meal, so a nice dense, you know, kind of woody fiber, constantly keeping the gut wall clean. It's allowing for higher, you know, absorption levels. You know, you don't get the slime buildup on the villi and bability going through that digestive tract. So your feed efficiency goes up. I tell you what, trying to sell fiber to this group or any any chicken people is like like pulling hen's teeth, as my grandmother used to say.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Well, I knew fiber was low, but honestly, I didn't realize it was that low.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

That's yeah. Okay, fiber doesn't like to pellet. So when you get too much fiber in a feed, especially like you know, oats or or alfalfa meal, the pellet will not want to hold together as a the feed won't want to hold together as a pellet or a crumble very well. So that's part of the reason. One, okay. Oats, oats and alfalfa meal are more expensive feed ingredients, so they're gonna raise the price. That's reason number two, okay, because they're the competition for oats the past few years due to the drought in the Midwest and up in Canada, oats have been scarce. So people like Quaker, Kellogg, all the food industry people, you know, the food industry companies have been paying just crazy money for oats. If they're even close to passing for human food grape, they've been paying a really big royalty. Then you also have the horse people who can't live without oats. And they're willing to open their wallet and spend more than a chicken person will, right? So you're competing for the food industry, you're competing with the equine industry. Okay. So oats aren't cheap. But you know, Europe's already figured this out, right? Is when they keep their fiber levels between five and six percent of the diet, that their birds are healthier and have a better life. I I don't know why, you know, we are driven so much by university BS that it just doesn't, you know, but it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

So I'm in researching for tonight, I was uh kind of surprised at a couple of the things that I uh I learned is that uh fiber-rich diets can reduce stress behaviors in birds. And obviously, because it improves gut health, it it also contributes to the overall health of the bird. And I think that's something we don't pay enough attention to, is uh the gul gut health in our birds. Um I may be way off base here, just in a personal observation.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

Uh Rip, it doesn't matter what animal we're talking about, from humans to cockroaches, okay. The overall health of an animal, any creature, is all based on its gut health. Okay, you can put it in the perfect environment, and if you feed it, you know, Twinkies and McDonald's, it is not going to thrive, right? So it's just not okay. It's not always about the environment. It's uh gut health is everything. And it doesn't matter, any species.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Gotcha. We talked about the types of fiber, you know, the wheat brands, the rice brands, the oats. But are there some other fibers out there that are used in poultry feeding?

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Everything, you name it. I mean, you know uh there are places that are grinding up and putting a little bit of sawdust in there, right? Or yeah, I mean, you know, corn stocks, but here fiber is neglected. If you look at most commercial feeds, okay, fiber is between three and four percent. Yes. It is it is rare to see a fiber at five plus, okay. Right, and it's even more rare to see a fiber at five plus that's in a pellet or crumble form. Okay, so it's it just doesn't all it you can't make this puzzle fit together, right? If you want the really good fibers, like alfalfa meal, like oats or oat holes, right? If you want those higher quality fibers, see the other fibers that were you you listed, even like wheat midlings are high in fiber, rice bran, etc. But if you held them in your hand, okay, and you could feel them, they're a very soft fiber, right? They're like a soft, fluffy, you know, they don't have a whole lot of density. They are fiber, but they're not really effective fiber, if you know what I mean. Like they get dissolved a whole lot quicker, you know, they start dissolving in the gizzard or in the crop, and they really get broke down quite a bit in the gizzard before they even get into the digestive tract. And so they don't have that cleaning effect, they don't have that scouring, scraping, you know, they don't really have any abrasion quality left.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Speaking of abrasion quality, she says, what kind of oats? And I I know that's come up before, but uh you know, I'm a whole oat fan.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Now, some of the really small bantams are not going to eat a whole oat, so you may have to get something, you know. You can the oats can be ground, it's fine. The fiber's still there, but on large fowl like Sioux, you know, just liken to supplement with a small amount of whole oats. And actually, oats are something that the bird can self-regulate on. I'd like to see somebody try putting a cup full, you know, or a pan of oats out there and just let them have what they want. They at a certain age, they're smart enough to know what they need, and they will they will diet self-select. I mean, they'll they'll take what they want. I know I just said a chicken was smart, so just don't hold that against me. But they are smart. They are smart. There is some pretty good data that shows that even a Cornish cross commercial bird has the ability to diet self-select somewhere in week five at the beginning of week five.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

So interesting.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Yeah, it's hard to believe, but they can do it.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

What about age-specific fiber requirements? Is is that a thing? Or are we still shooting fat?

SPEAKER_02 38:15

No, I I can stay pretty steady right there at that five to six percent. One key factor, and you know, and we're gonna talk about fats later, is I found this is only my observation, folks. This this isn't written anywhere, but I always want to keep my fat and my fiber pretty well equal. So if you're running a high fat diet, I need a high fiber diet. Okay, so I see the best bird performance and health when if my fiber's five, I want my fat at five. If my fiber is six, I want my my fat at six. Actually, it's fat deriving it. So if the fat's at six, I want my fiber at six. If my fat is seven, I want you know, so like in a quail diet, Gary, you know, we've been talking about a little bit about the fat needs to be much higher. Yeah, and so does that fiber level to keep that gut health where it needs to be. Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

On a quail, six to eight percent is better.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah, actually eight or nine in those younger quails during the start of the grower, it's just hard to get the fat level that high. And it's better if it's coming from natural oil seeds versus added and processed fats, you know, because once they pri once they press it, degum it, filter it, and put it in a in a bottle so that you can take it home and cook with it, there's a lot that got lost in that translation. So it's a whole lot better fat if it's coming from like a roasted soybean or you know, some flax or some canola or you know, where it's beef tallow. Beef tallow is awesome. If people could figure out how to do beef tallow or pork fat, pork lard, those are the top two.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

So I I've actually come up with a solution for that. What I um like with one of my coil projects that I got going on to get that fat up closer to that nine percent, I'm gonna get some beef tallow and put my feed in. I broke out my concrete mixer. I'm gonna put the feed in it and start it rotating. I'm gonna heat up the tallow and put it in while it's still hot and spread it out and let it bond to the feed when it cools down, and then you know, it's feed with candy on it. Oh, yeah, it's pretty awesome at that point.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Yeah. Would there be any advantage? I'm asking both of you guys here, to use rendered fat, or could you take raw fat and run it through a meat grinder and feed them that?

SPEAKER_02 41:03

You can. Either way is fine. Okay. Okay, so the down here's here's the downside to using animal fat. Okay, either beef tallow or pork lard or fish oil, whatever. Okay, uh animal fat has a short shelf life of stability. Yeah, so you've got about one week. Once you pull that out of the freezer or the fridge or whatever, right, and you mix it, you you you're looking at in the winter, probably seven to ten days. In the heat of summer, you're probably looking at five to seven days, okay, before it's gonna want to oxidize and start going rancid. Okay, so that just I mean, it's still it's worth the extra work, in my opinion, but and it they are way better for the animal to process those fats, but it is gonna add work to it.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Rachel is wanting to know is the lysine in Kraut Creek Chick starter at 1.2 and methionine at 0.45. Is that high enough or should it be a little higher? I know the guy that went wrote their recipes.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

No, those are those are really good. And Rachel, one other thing to keep in mind is you know, as I work with Kraut Creek and other feed mills, that lice that lysine could actually be 0.124, 125. I I tell everybody to round down slightly, just because if they get tested by the state laboratories, they're gonna pass their test. So that's probably more like uh 1.24, 1.25, 1.26. So it's plenty and it has the right balance. Okay. So that makes sense. Your birds are gonna be really happy on that formula.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Is there a difference in or noticeable difference for poultry in vegetable fats and animal fats?

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Say that again, Rip. Is there a noticeable difference?

SPEAKER_00 43:10

What in the types of well is is one let me I'm we now I'm getting confused with myself. Is it better to feed plant-based fats or animal-based fats or a combination of those two?

SPEAKER_02 43:31

Um, you know, in a perfect world, I would want two-thirds animal fat, one-third vegetable fat is probably the perfect, you know, the perfect combination. You know, because in nature the bird would be picking up seeds and and other things along the way. But, you know, when it when it finds an opportunity to eat fat, it's gonna eat a lot of it, right? And then it's gonna stock up on it. So And most birds would prefer, you know, insects, which would go more towards the animal fat side. The fat profile in insects would be more of an animal type fat than a seed fat. So if left to their own devices, they would eat way more insects.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

What how do poultry utilize fats? What do they do for them? I know it's a primary source of energy for a lot of them.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

Well, it's more than that. So it actually keeps the liver healthy. So the liver drives all the cholesterol. It does a lot of things. The liver does a huge amount of things. But keeping the liver healthy with the right appropriate types of fat keeps the liver more efficient. And then it gets into the liver. The liver is going to break it down and redeposit it throughout the body. Right. So yeah, it's it's a key health factor, not just a growth factor, just and not just you know, weight gain. It's not a growth, it's not you know carcass fat. It's fats are important.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Well, it has it also assists in those fat-soluble vitamins. Am I correct there?

SPEAKER_03 45:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

And one source I looked at, it said that there's also benefit for fats to certain hormones that play a role in reproduction and overall.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

I haven't gone that far down the fat trail yet, so I you know more about that than me at that point. But yeah, I need to study more on fats, but it's and it's getting more and more important about you know the hyolaics, the linoleics, the different kinds of fats out there is getting more and more significant. And I need to get educated from good sources, not you know, crazy Google stuff. But um again, it's just a good balance of things out there.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Kerry, did we answer Rachel's last question there? Did we just cover a little bit of a little bit more?

SPEAKER_01 46:30

So this is a this is a different question, and she's pointing out something. I think she's reading off one of the Kraut Creek tags, but I see this on a lot of feed tags where you know the fat's going to be a little bit higher than the fiber instead of the two being about equal. But she's wanting to know if the fiber in a feed is 5.5 and the fat is nine. Would you add in some oats to get the fiber up, or is the fat too high, or is that okay, an okay balance?

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Okay, the fat's a little on the high side, but Craw Creek is using roasted soybeans for their protein source, and that's why the fat is at that level. So some of that fat is still trapped in the tissue of the roasted soybean. So it's not like added fat where it's 100% available immediately, right? So it's going to slowly break down throughout the digestive tract, all the way from the gizzard, you know, until it comes out the vent. And so I'm not worried about that one. That's a really good ratio. The fat level is a little bit high for developing out like show, show type poultry. Those feed formulas were made for meat production type birds. Okay. So at some point, you know, offering them some alfalfa, some extra oats, it could have a positive effect. Uh I would be in for that, you know. Not right away, you know, give it a little bit of time, but as they, you know, as they get a little bit older and can handle it, I would throw some whole oats in there for them to peck at, and it'll work great.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

You know, in studying feed tags, I've seen a lot of feed tags that have a fat content around three, three and a half percent, but finding ones that get to that five and six percent is very hard to do. I'm just starting to say that's not an easy task. You know, even even on some of your more higher regarded name feed companies that have, you know, they do a lot of marketing. I'm not gonna name any names because I'm not gonna sling any mud, but there's there's a lot that they do a lot of marketing and advertise a lot, but they still don't get to some of those to the numbers that the birds should have.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

You can't pellet it, Gary, right? Look, we're our own worst enemy in that we want the convenience of a pellet or a crumble, okay? Because we don't want to, you know, we don't want them sorting the feed, and we don't want them leaving the finds. You know, these are all the constant whining that I hear in my position over the last 30 years. Okay. People don't want to, they they want convenience, they want to be able to free feed, right? And you know, the commercial industry has duped us into believing that pellets and crumbles are perfect because they get the same, they get the same nutrition in every bite. I mean, every time I hear that, I just almost want to vomit. That's how bad that is. Okay, so I agree. You know, look, we we bought into, you know, we bought into the company line that pellets are better, people like them. Okay, you can't get those fat and fiber levels in a pellet. It's not gonna happen. It will never happen.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

Right. So Chris has a question: is there a limit to how much seed, whole seed, or seed or whole seed should be given? I'm looking at trying to grow as much as possible of the amaranth, sunflowers, millet, rye, and maybe some oats in the area. But he's wanting to know is there a limit to how much is too much?

SPEAKER_02 50:39

There's not really a limit on how much is too much. Okay, so uh you want all of your particle size to be about the same as one grain of rye or oat, or you know, so you want your particle size to be very similar, and even chicks can manage those grains whole provided that they have grit. Okay. I'm all in on grid. I don't particularly care for Chris's choices of grains. I'm not a fan of sunflower, I'm not a fan of amaranth. Millet needs to be limited to no more than 15% of the diet, or that it will retard or reduce feed intake. Rye's fine, you just have to make sure that it's ergot-free. You know, you don't want to gamble too much with your rye, rye or turtical is having some predisposed to ergot, you know, and you can lose a whole flock in a short period of time with ergot.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Explain what ergot is. There's some folks out there that may not know.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

I don't really know it as good as I'd like to know it. Ergot is the chemical side effect of a fungus that grows particularly on rye and rye crosses. Okay. You can see it occasionally on some wheat, but it's very odd to see it on wheat, but it sticks usually to rye and triticale. But it's it is a fungus, you know, and if you get moisture after the grain starts hardening off and ripening, it'll be really predisposed to erg it. It can kill humans, it can kill live animals, and it can kill a lot of chickens.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Yeah. Our friend Kelly brings up a good question. He says pellets last about a month on the shelf. After that, how long does the nutrition or how much does the nutrition go down? And I'm even going to add a caveat to that. You know, it's no secret that Rip and I like a coarse mesh type feeder. Or, you know, what's the what's the life difference between a pellet, a shelf life difference, and a coarse mash? Talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

So the pellet actually, when it goes through the pellet mill, because it kind of homogenizes the the carbohydrates and the fats a little bit, a pellet will actually have a slightly better shelf life than a mash feed only. And because when it once it's a pellet, it limits how much oxygen exposure to the carbohydrates. It can the oxygen can only contact the surface area of the pellet, whereas with a mash feed, you know, it is going to be able to contact more of the grain surface. So unfortunately, I have to say that a pellet has a little bit better shelf life. And I wish I didn't say that, but the pellet also starts out inferior because of all the byproducts, the reduced fat, the reduced fiber. So mash feed, you know, we've we've had mash feeds fresh from Crop Creek that even at 90 days in a bag, you know, it in their bag, their original bag, fed great, had great performance, you know, nutrition value was still there. So I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

I mean, I I've had mash feed that literally was made ground up and mixed and shipped the same on the freight truck the same day. Yeah. You're not getting feed that fresh when you go to the store to buy it.

SPEAKER_02 54:35

You can't, because it has to go into a distribution center. So they make it, then it goes to a large warehouse somewhere, then it gets split up and sent out on multiple trucks. It's rare to see commercial feed less than two weeks old, okay, before it hits the shelf.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

You know, we're talking about comparing pellets and uh mash type feed. The deal breaker between those two of those is there's more byproducts, there's more add-ins that really don't do a chicken much good in the pellets.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

They have to be there to farm the pellet. Yeah. I mean, I they're they're a required evil, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

I think the meat that I get from Carrie, you'd be hard pressed to pelletize that without adding something to it.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

I mean, you can run it through a pellet mill, but it it'll fall apart when it comes through the other end.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Karen Johnson did it, right, without byproducts, but okay, it it it went into her pails, into you know, into her tubs, into her pails, and it only had to go two miles down the road. Okay, going across the road in transportation, it would not hold up. You know, if it had to go a hundred miles, it it's gonna fall apart. So it just doesn't, you know, without those binders, it does not, you know, it's just not gonna hold together.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

Joy says if I use a 20% chick starter, would I also use breeder supplement? She wants healthy chicks. I would.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

I mean, I you know I do. Yeah. One rounded tablespoon for every pound of chick feed is a cheap investment.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

You just can't beat the start that stuff gives baby chicks. It is absolutely amazing. First time I saw it, I couldn't believe it. Huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

Sue needs us to explain what a mash is. I don't have a picture.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

You got a picture you can pop up there. So, you know, mash is the grains have been put through either a roller mill or uh or a grinder, right? And they're just blended grains. But they don't look like grains much anymore. They will through a roller mill because they'll be big and chunky and granola-like, but it's just it kind of looks like uh granola is the best way to explain it, unless we can pop up a picture.

SPEAKER_00 57:35

I know I've got some, but they're not wanting to come up for me tonight for some reason. Yeah, give me just a second. Could be because they're on my phone and not on my computer. I've been known to do that.

SPEAKER_02 58:03

I I've got my finger on a picture, but I don't know how to get it to the screen.

SPEAKER_01 58:09

I'm working on it.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

Okay. He's our resident computer guru. All right.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

I don't see a drag and drop opportunity here, so no, there's not one.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

No, you have to I gotta create a PowerPoint.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

You should be able to upload an image in Media Assets as a banner, just a raw image.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

While we're waiting on a picture, yes, one rounded tablespoon breeder supplement per one pound of chick feed, any feed. Doesn't matter what age. Okay, so this ratio always holds out at one rounded tablespoon of breeder supplement per one pound of feed.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Well, Carrie's doing that. I we had another question pop up there, and unless we got it.

SPEAKER_02 59:11

Kelly wanted to know if no, they're not useless. They're probably good for they're they're declining in nutrition, but they're probably good for 60 to 90 days if they're kept somewhat airtight and good condition and good good storage. Did we miss any others?

SPEAKER_00 59:33

There's one and I can't find it now that had a question about calcium. They called it fast calcium in in poultry feed.

SPEAKER_02 59:42

Yeah, that was got it. So most feeds should have all the calcium that is needed, and most poultry feeds use a fine particle calcium, so yes, the answer should have all the fast calcium they need.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Thank you for finding that. I wasn't going far back far enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

Are you getting closer, Gary? I am apparently I take more pictures than I thought I did.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

See if I can send you a picture later if he can't find it. But there's also identifiable pieces of grain in there. I mean you can see the corn, the wheat, little pieces of oats. It's a great feed. I'm a I'm a firm believer in mashed type feeds now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

I mean to me it's a more efficient because you know, you've got to f essentially feed your chickens rocks to get them to break up the pellets. To be able to absorb the nutrition. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

Yes, Joy, they start with whole grains, you know, whether it's corn, oats, wheat, barley, whatever, and they either roll it through a roller mill or to crack it, or they'll put it through a hammer mill and grind it and then mix it all together. That's what a mash is.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

I can remember many, many years ago, that's about the only thing you could get was a mash format feed.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

I mean a lot of commercial houses use it and they drive it through their machines with auger bits. All right, I found one. It's coming.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

We need us a Jeopardy countdown. Do do to do to do too do Rip, did you look through we got all the questions answered?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

I think so. We'll probably end with a picture of Max feed.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

Joy had another question here. So if I were to make my own feed, how long do the whole grains stay good for?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

Years.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

Yeah. They'll stay good for a very long time.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:40

Is that grinding or cracking that?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:42

Yeah, once uh once the starch right, once the starch is exposed, once the carbohydrates are exposed to exposed to oxygen is when countdown begins.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

All right, I'm uploading it to StreamEard right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:06

I think Chris said he was in. Didn't Chris say that he was in interior Alaska?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

I think that's what he said. He did. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

I think that was why he picked out some of the things that he picked out because that's that's either what he could get or what he could grow there.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

There you go, folks. That's what a mash feed looks like.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

Good stuff in that form. Good stuff. Well, guys, do you guys have anything else tonight? Or I don't see any more questions here. No. Well, I have enjoyed the show. I hope Carrie and Jeff has as well, and we certainly hope our listeners have enjoyed the show as well. Uh, we always have a lot of fun uh bringing you all these things together, and always interesting to see what we can come up with. I think probably next show is the time to address vitamins, minerals, and metabolizable energy in feed, and why all those are important. So we'll plan on that. Until then, you guys have a great time and good luck with your birds this year.